Gentoo Handbook "flame war"

[HeXiLeD]

Hello gentlemen.

Intro
Frist of all i have been using gentoo almost for a year. i have done at least 20 gentoo installs all from stage 1.
The frist time i installed gentoo was as stage1 and i was told to skip the bootstrap to make my life "better".
I have seen many noobs using stage1 and having no problems with that.
I have also read about many people that still prefer that stage and this includes some newbies.
I still prefer stage1 even on a pentium II
I also understand why stage1 is also seen as a "waste" of time, but not stage2

Personal notes:
I love gentoo so much that some guy once told me that i was brainwashed.
If we want stage3 on a source distro to avoid work... then we would have used vidalinux.
stage 3 = lazy gentoo install, not to call it something else "depreciative"...
I moved from debian for a few reasons, otherwise i would have gone with ubuntu if i wanted a "easy distro install" or maybe even fedora...

I am not the only one complaining about this, and my complain is more than just about the handbook; because if now the help for other stages is somehow gone; its a matter of time until those same stages are gone too.

The problem :

[allucid]

There is no reason to do a stage 1 or 2, just do a stage 3 and then 'emerge -e world', same effect, less headache.

Or you could volunteer to work on the handbook. Or you could post a stage 1 howto on the gentoo-wiki or DT&T section.

And lastly, you posted this in the wrong section and there is already a topic on this.

[Bob P]

the first time i installed Gentoo, it was on a P3. i had performed a Stage 3 install and everything was working fine.

then a Gentoo "expert" told me that I needed to reinstall and do a Stage 1 to have an "optimized" system. the install broke because of circular dependencies and i was turned off to Gentoo for over a month. I went back to SuSE.

after a month, i tried again, and Stage 1 was broken because of circular dependencies with perl. i spent a number of days in the forums trying to figure out how to fix the problem.

5 weeks after purging my Stage 3 install, I had finally completed a Stage 1 install and my system was no better off than it would have been if i had just stuck with my original Stage 3 install.

i still regret how much time i wasted because of bad advice from a Gentoo "expert". now i know better. and i try to help other people from making the same mistakes. but some people continue to believe that a stage 1 is better. oh well.

@allucid, i think your recommendation is pretty good -- if people are so upset that the Stage 1 install is no longer officially supported, they should get off of their butts and contribute to Gentoo by writing a Stage 1 installation guide instead of complaining. then they should provide support for it. only then will they realize why the releng guys had such a good idea...
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Stage 1/3 | Jackass! | Rockhopper! | Thanks | Google Sucks

[allucid]

I think the circular deps issue has been fixed with the current stage 1's (not sure, though). I, too, always did stage 1 installs the first few times until I ran into the circular deps issue.

[Frodg]

[quote="Bob P"]
i still regret how much time i wasted because of bad advice from a Gentoo "expert".

and


every time i think about how much time i wasted because of shitty advice, i fantasize about choking the life out of that fucking Gentoo "expert".
[quote]

Oh no... My favourite gentoo expert has identity crisis

Now I have to delete my Jackass installs (several) because I can't be sure any more... I can feel an attack coming on and I am out of medication
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Aerosolo ergo sum - I spray therefore I am

Gentoo - Registered Linux User # 361400

[Triffid Hunter]

A lot of people are going to miss the point of this whole thing.

This is not about "we shouldn't let people think stage 1 is better, get frustrated and go around complaining about how long it took"

This is not about "let's streamline the install as much as possible so n00bs can use gentoo"

This is about what makes gentoo as popular as it is - choice.

And the first choice was how early in the process we want to start tweaking things, looking at things, choosing things.

Yes! stage 3 is almost always the best place to start - but let's not take away the knowledge that it's not the only place to start.

One of the things that first gave me a hint as to what gentoo was about was, "would you like to bootstrap your system from scratch, or just get on with it? Here's some pros and cons of each method:"

That choice, and all the choices that follow are what sets gentoo apart.

Some people like the choice to do things the hard way or another way, even if they never ever use it.
Some people like to start from the very start, even if it's not the fastest or easiest way, because the process is more important than the result.
Some people like to know what they _can_ do, so they have a reference to understand how useful more efficient methods are, and what is lost to gain that efficiency.
Some people like to do things purely "for the hell of it".
And those people are often gentoo users for those exact reasons.

I know I am.

Do people have a choice if they don't even know there's a choice to be made?

The difference between a stage 1 install and a stage 3 then emerge system; emerge world is almost purely conceptual -- but its a concept that people value. It's a concept people want to have access to.

I vote for putting stage 1 and 2 instructions back in the handbook, even if under a banner that says "In 99.9% of cases you don't want to do it this way, but here's how to do it if you've an especially wierd setup, want to perform hackery from the word go, or are just plain bloody-minded -- click here to skip to stage 3 instructions, or read on for the long haul"

That way people know that they can choose where to start -- even if most will go the faster route.

Start taking away the visible choices, and gentoo will eventually become Just Another Linux Distribution.

[HeXiLeD]

Mr Bob P allow me to :

[omp]

I don't know if this has been said before, but there is already a topic on this and this is in the wrong section.

Anyways, the stage1 instructions were removed from the handbook because many people were having problems due to it. How hard is it to click an extra link and follow the instructions on another page? They still exist.
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meow.

[codergeek42]

Moved from DT&T to Duplicate Threads. Please follow-up to What exactly happened to stage 1? And bootstrapping?. Thanks.
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~~ Peter: Programmer, Mathematician, STEM & Free Software Advocate, Enlightened Agent, Transhumanist, Fedora contributor
Who am I? :: EFF & FSF