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gbkyle
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 Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 11:51 pm Post subject: Just tried debian and... |
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I think its terrible.. I think gentoo's package system is so much better.. when im using it i feel like im using an old distro for some reason.. i dunno maybe im wrong. What do you guys think? I think the only reason why someone would use debian over gentoo is possibly for more stability.. but I would think if you're experienced enough you could get gentoo to be just as stable.. no?
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EzInKy
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 12:10 am Post subject: |
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Debian is the finest binary distro out there, bar none. It can be as "old" or "new" as you want depending on what flavor you choose to use. Personally I always chose to run Sid as occasional breakage didn't bother me that much and I always keep a "rescue" partition around for such emergencies.
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codergeek42
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 12:11 am Post subject: |
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| EzInKy wrote: | | Debian is the finest binary distro out there, bar none. It can be as "old" or "new" as you want depending on what flavor you choose to use. Personally I always chose to run Sid as occasional breakage didn't bother me that much and I always keep a "rescue" partition around for such emergencies. |
Personally, I find Fedora to be a much better binary distro than Debian. Then again, I've used Debian for all of about a week, whereas I used Fedora for more than a year before trying Gentoo. 
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ac_static
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Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 12:43 am Post subject: |
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| EzInKy wrote: | | Debian is the finest binary distro out there, bar none. It can be as "old" or "new" as you want depending on what flavor you choose to use. Personally I always chose to run Sid as occasional breakage didn't bother me that much and I always keep a "rescue" partition around for such emergencies. |
Here, Here.
I'll second that comment. My machine, my kids machine, the wife's machine, my laptop, my work laptop, all run Gentoo with ~x86 (or ~amd64 as appropriate) and/or NetBSD where the occassional hickup doesn't really bother me: I can always fall back on another machine, and then try and fix the problem at my leasure, but my servers all run Debian (some SID, but my mail server runs 'stable'). As much as I love playing with Gentoo, it has yet to prove to me to be as rock solid as Debian stable: my mail server's uptime was 26 days shy of two years when we had a 4 hour power failure and the UPS failed. |
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jlc
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:09 am Post subject: |
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| ac_static wrote: | | As much as I love playing with Gentoo, it has yet to prove to me to be as rock solid as Debian stable: my mail server's uptime was 26 days shy of two years when we had a 4 hour power failure and the UPS failed. |
 Sounds like a good opportunity to install security updates for you kernel!
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plbe
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| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 2:26 am Post subject: |
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| debian is a great distro, in fact it is the most copied distro of all time. I'm not exactly sure what you mean by old....old packages? if that is the case you are probably using debian stable which of course has older packages. Instead use sid, it may not have ALL the latest packages, but it has quite a bit, you can even install packages from experimental if you want |
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seank
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| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 3:57 am Post subject: Re: Just tried debian and... |
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| gbkyle wrote: | | when im using it i feel like im using an old distro for some reason.. |
Uh, it makes you "feel" like you're using an old distro? wtf? Why don't you tell us why you think it's a primitive package system... |
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Cinder6
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| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 5:15 am Post subject: |
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I like Debian, but I prefer Gentoo.
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i92guboj
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| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 5:30 am Post subject: |
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| gbkyle wrote: | | I think its terrible.. I think gentoo's package system is so much better.. when im using it i feel like im using an old distro for some reason.. i dunno maybe im wrong. What do you guys think? I think the only reason why someone would use debian over gentoo is possibly for more stability.. but I would think if you're experienced enough you could get gentoo to be just as stable.. no? |
I can't agree, Debian is not only a rock solid stable old-fashion distro. apt-get is a solid platfor for packages management, very fast and efficient on its work. The distro is not only secure, it has a more up-to-date branch (SID) for those who preffer to be updated or simply dont need such rock solid security system. It is a well tested and developed distro, and, for sure, if I did not know about Gentoo, I would stick to Debian, where I passed some nice linux years...
So, if you want to try SID, you will notice that debian can be as updated as a ~x86 Gentoo. Still, there is allways the source code for those packs that seems to never go into the package system (yes, in Gentoo it happens too, so that is not an argument). Appart from that, Debian has one of the larger (if not the largest) numbers of packages on its package database.
About the age, did you know that the linux kernel development was started in 1991? That is older than Debian 
| codergeek42 wrote: | | EzInKy wrote: | | Debian is the finest binary distro out there, bar none. It can be as "old" or "new" as you want depending on what flavor you choose to use. Personally I always chose to run Sid as occasional breakage didn't bother me that much and I always keep a "rescue" partition around for such emergencies. |
Personally, I find Fedora to be a much better binary distro than Debian. Then again, I've used Debian for all of about a week, whereas I used Fedora for more than a year before trying Gentoo. |
For once, I dont agree. I like Fedora no more than I like Milli Vanilli (which is nothing, of course). But that is about tastes. All that kind of distros are too much tunned and it is very difficult to figure out what certain parts of the system do for theirselves. I prefer to see the truth at a first glance, it is for that that I like the simplicity that Gentoo offers, and that, in a different manner, is also present into Debian. |
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Monkeh
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| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 6:02 am Post subject: |
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| 6thpink wrote: | | I prefer to see the truth at a first glance, it is for that that I like the simplicity that Gentoo offers, and that, in a different manner, is also present into Debian. |
If you like distros like that, have you tried Slackware? 
Can't say I have any experience with Debian myself. I need to try it though. I also need to try Fedora, RHEL, and all the other mainstream distros. (not that I'm planning on switching of course.. ) |
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Cintra
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| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 6:42 am Post subject: |
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I've played with knoppix since v3.3 but the latest kanotix liveCD beta is fast as h... and finds everything on my system. well worth trying
dl from http://debian.tu-bs.de/project/kanotix/preview/
and try klik too!
mvh
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michelle778
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| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 8:05 am Post subject: Re: Just tried debian and... |
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| gbkyle wrote: | | I think its terrible.. |
Don't say that, because this depends on what you are used to and what you compare it to. Imagine comparing Debian with Fedora or Mandriva - then Debian might be the finest thing ever. But as long as people get paid by the hour, Gentoo won't have a lot of chances on a server, because it takes to long to install it, and maintaining Debian doesn't cost more time with apt than you need with portage.
Anyway, a system is as stable and secure as the user maintaining it - no matter if you use SuSE, Gentoo, Debian or even Windows.
What really pisses me of, is the fact, that everyone produces his own distribution, it would be so nice to get all the energy togehter on a few projects (like having one .deb based, one .rpm based, one source based, ... distribution and not 50 each). That's what makes Linux (and comparable projects) really bad and laughable.
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Q-collective
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| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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| EzInKy wrote: | | Debian is the finest binary distro out there, bar none. |
Wrong, Arch is |
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codergeek42
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| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Q-collective wrote: | | EzInKy wrote: | | Debian is the finest binary distro out there, bar none. |
Wrong, Arch is |
It would be if it didn't encourage the use of proprietary software...
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djdunn
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| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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gentoo is only unstable for me when i try to do something i know is stupid with it
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i92guboj
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| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Monkeh wrote: | | 6thpink wrote: | | I prefer to see the truth at a first glance, it is for that that I like the simplicity that Gentoo offers, and that, in a different manner, is also present into Debian. |
If you like distros like that, have you tried Slackware?
Can't say I have any experience with Debian myself. I need to try it though. I also need to try Fedora, RHEL, and all the other mainstream distros. (not that I'm planning on switching of course.. ) |
Yes, tried. It is a beautifull thing too. But I just found Gentoo to suit better my needs (not that all people should think the same, to each his/her own). Also tried LFS, and, really, it is cool to learn, but not too suitable for anything else, unless you have all your time to maintain it. First, you need to know very well the distro (which is not a problem, the documentation is ok) but the hard part is that you need to be vigilant for all the security updates, new versions and updates in general. In a system with, let's say, 1k - 3k packages installed that is, moreless, a pain in the ass.
| michelle778 wrote: | | gbkyle wrote: | | I think its terrible.. |
Don't say that, because this depends on what you are used to and what you compare it to. Imagine comparing Debian with Fedora or Mandriva - then Debian might be the finest thing ever. But as long as people get paid by the hour, Gentoo won't have a lot of chances on a server, because it takes to long to install it, and maintaining Debian doesn't cost more time with apt than you need with portage. |
Well, I agree in my dislike for Fedora, Mandriva and such mainstream distros, but, let's admit that it is still linux. If it is true that I don't like them (yes, I tried some of these for a considerable amount of time) it is true also that anyone have the right (and I would say almost the must) to form his/her own opinion on this. Let me say just one thing: it was (and still is) said that Debian is not suitable for a desktop, which has probed to be a lie. The same applies for the statement "Gentoo is not for servers". In the same way that "Windows sucks for whatever task", "Mandrake is pure bullsh*t cause..." and similar phrases. Gentoo can be hardened, adapted, and configured to serve as well as any other distro. Of course, there are distros that eases the work, as is the case of Debian. But to say that Gentoo does not have any chance is to be a bit radical in my understanding. Gosh! If Windows can be a server and people even pay for it, any distro is suitable for that purpose. The security updates will take a bit more to complete, but you can do them in the background with a very low priority and the system will update cleanly and continue working as any other linux would do.
| michelle778 wrote: | Anyway, a system is as stable and secure as the user maintaining it - no matter if you use SuSE, Gentoo, Debian or even Windows.
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Fully agree. That is the only true and the definitive word about security.
| michelle778 wrote: | | What really pisses me of, is the fact, that everyone produces his own distribution, it would be so nice to get all the energy togehter on a few projects (like having one .deb based, one .rpm based, one source based, ... distribution and not 50 each). That's what makes Linux (and comparable projects) really bad and laughable. |
Mm... Really, if you consider this as laughable and very very bad, why are you here? The fact is that every person has his/her own needs, and, precisely because this is free software and the source is available and GPL'd in most cases, you have the right to take it, pack it using whatever system you preffer, and ship it to cover a concrete necesity. The word free has two meanings (at least, if not more): first, it cost no money, and second, it is free like in freedom, so, why not? Anyone can do what s/he feels like, including the release of 673.456.473 distros if that is their will.
The open source comunity is based in that freedom, so, if some people are interested in colaborate with each other, they will find a way to contact and merge, fork, spawn, grow, make, ship and create whatever they want if they feel that their objetives (and their ways) are compatible. If not, everybody can take their own way. For example, you say that there should be only a rpm distro. Well, and you ship it with ..... ermmm.... gnome? Then rpm distros are not for kde users.... You are imposing things like a company which name I will not mention. Is not to say that that is a bad thing, but, it is true that is not the linux way to do the things. If you like it, take it, if not, then Windows (TM).
- Regards. |
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michelle778
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| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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| 6thpink wrote: |
The open source comunity is based in that freedom, so, if some people are interested in colaborate with each other, they will find a way to contact and merge, fork, spawn, grow, make, ship and create whatever they want if they feel that their objetives (and their ways) are compatible. If not, everybody can take their own way. For example, you say that there should be only a rpm distro. Well, and you ship it with ..... ermmm.... gnome? Then rpm distros are not for kde users.... You are imposing things like a company which name I will not mention. Is not to say that that is a bad thing, but, it is true that is not the linux way to do the things. If you like it, take it, if not, then Windows (TM). |
Ok, maybe I didn't find the right words. Everyone has the freedom to create his own software, distribution or whatever, but it would be really helpful if the huge open source community would collaborate better. This means, that if you create a rpm - it should work with all rpm based distributions, as well as .deb packages made for Ubuntu should work for Debian, Kanotix... as well.
It's not that I want to tell anyone what to do or not to do, or even be like this wellknown company trying to dictate the whole market. I'm just sad, that a lot of energy in a lot of projects is wasted, because of this "I'm doing my own solution and I don't care a lot about the others" mentality.
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davascript
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| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | For once, I dont agree. I like Fedora no more than I like Milli Vanilli (which is nothing, of course). But that is about tastes. All that kind of distros are too much tunned and it is very difficult to figure out what certain parts of the system do for theirselves. I prefer to see the truth at a first glance, it is for that that I like the simplicity that Gentoo offers, and that, in a different manner, is also present into Debian. |
I agree fedora just leaves too much unknown stuff to really learn linux, I lost patience and it ran like crap with gnome or kde and any sytem I put it on. Windows xp ran better. I am currently using debian (sarge) on a box I think I paid a total of 50 bucks for. It ran like crap with gnome so I reformatted and started fresh with fluxbox and this thing makes for a very competitive desktop, I could probably do a lot more with it but i have been spending more time with gentoo. yes certain things are there that i dont like. But a couple packages that arent in the package DB isnt going to let me down, get the tarball of the source and install it if need be. I am so sick of the war between what OS/Distro is better. Just use one, two, three, or four and use them well. Learn it if you dont like it try it again at a later time and see if it suits you then. Its like arguing over what is the best kernel to use nitro or build your own from vanilla. Flavors are flavors! I don't know about you, but I wouldn't argue in an ice cream shop with your buddies? |
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i92guboj
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Joined: 30 Nov 2004
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| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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@michelle
Well, that is not a Linux or Open Source Community issue, but a very personal issue. There are people who work together, and there are (and there will always be) people who like to develop alone, with themselves (and maybe a couple of friends) and nothing more.
Some examples of wonderfull collaborative projects spread around the whole net. For example the kde or gnome team, the freedesktop consortium (or whatever it is called) and many more. The competence is good in certain manner, because it promoves competition (wich is not the same) and stimulate developers. Usually, projects like Gentoo or Debian tend to be more collaborative than commercial projects, like Mandr*whatever or SuSE. That is unavoidable, since enterprises are enterprises.
I agree with you that in some aspects it would be a good thing to be more collaborative. For example, the thing that you say about the packages... It is difficult though, because there are non standard ways to distribute the different pieces into the filesystem layout for each distro out there. Some standarizing efforts would be a very possitive thing, but it is really difficult thing to archieve, since so much of these distros have already a very big place on the market (and between the linux users in general). Still, I dont think that that is a reason why big projects cant be made out of Open Source in General and Linux in particular, and much less a reason to say that this is laughable at all.
I used and use many flavours of linux in many different tasks, and, believe me, it would be so, sooooo, difficult to pretend that slack ang gentoo are the same, or mandrake and redhat are the same, because they are not. The same for debian and ubuntu, even if they share the packaging system. Everyone of them all has a very specific strong point, which the rest misses. For debian and redhat is the security maybe, for mandrake the usability for newcomers, for ubuntu maybe the same, gentoo has a very simple and clean setup that anyone who is interested in trully learn about linux internals can take advantage of, and so we could continue forever.
To sum up, I think that, the main problem that block such standarization in the linux world is this: specific strong points in different distros with differences, and people who dont want to give away that distros because they like them and want to continue using them the way they are.
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Aynjell
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| Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 2:45 am Post subject: |
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If I were to use a binary distro, I'd use one that was either massively supported, or one that was designed to be 100$ idiotproof. So, fedora, ubuntu, or Linspire. But, since I am fully capable of maintaining my gentoo system, well, I prefer the uber feeling I get from running gentoo productively and without issues.
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racoontje
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| Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 8:22 am Post subject: |
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I run Debian, no problems with it whatsoever. The only gripes I have are:
Few games, both free (openttd) and commercial (Quake 4, Doom 3...)
Truly non-free stuff is not availible in any of the main repostories (ipw2200 firmware for example)
No decent equivalent of forums.gentoo.org or the Gentoo doc wiki, although I haven't needed it yet |
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Syntaxis
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| Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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| racoontje wrote: | | Truly non-free stuff is not availible in any of the main repostories (ipw2200 firmware for example) |
Actually, the ipw2200-source package provides the ipw2200 firmware.
| Quote: | | No decent equivalent of forums.gentoo.org or the Gentoo doc wiki, although I haven't needed it yet[/list] |
Anyone hoping for an equivalent of these forums should feel free to come hang out on the Debian User Forums and help build up the community. As for a wiki - what's wrong with http://wiki.debian.org, in your opinion?
EDIT: | rafael wrote: | | OT: Ironically, the syntax in the last link skewed it. |
Hehe - corrected, cheers. Bloody braindead URL parser...
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rafael
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| Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Syntaxis wrote: | | Anyone hoping for an equivalent of these forums should feel free to come hang out on the Debian User Forums and help build up the community. As for a wiki - what's wrong with http://wiki.debian.org, in your opinion? |
OT: Ironically, the syntax in the last link skewed it.
- rafael |
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curtis119
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| Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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Debian is one of the best distros on the planet if not THE best distro on the planet. Of course Slackware is just a little bit better.
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Aynjell
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| Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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<Insert joke about debian's massive store of entirely deprecated software here!>
Hi there, curtis119!
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