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| What OS Should I Use |
| Stick With Gentoo: Things will straighten out |
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73% |
[ 126 ] |
| FreeBSD |
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7% |
[ 12 ] |
| Fedora |
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1% |
[ 2 ] |
| Debian |
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0% |
[ 1 ] |
| Ubuntu |
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5% |
[ 9 ] |
| Sabayon |
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1% |
[ 3 ] |
| Stick With Gentoo: Switch to Paludis and other 3rd party overlays |
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8% |
[ 14 ] |
| Another Distro |
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2% |
[ 4 ] |
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| Total Votes : 171 |
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zx2c4
Developer
Joined: 09 Jun 2005
Posts: 177
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 Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 4:51 pm Post subject: Roy is gone... Should I Leave Gentoo |
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It's no secret that the Gentoo Community has been in disarray for quite some time now. The portage tree is slowing, emerge is broken, and internal politics seem to plague every other part of the project. Its most recent strike has been aiding in the resignation of Roy Marples, a top developer and member of the Gentoo council. He headed the baselayout2 project, which I've been using since rc1 and have never looked back to baselayout1.x. People keep quitting, and Gentoo keeps devolving away from its glory days a few years ago. It is becoming jumbled, disorganized, and slow, I fear.
I am very concerned about the future of Gentoo, and what to do with my computing. Will Gentoo recover? Should I switch to another OS/Distro? |
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tanderson
Retired Dev
Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 193
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 5:08 pm Post subject: Re: Roy is gone... Should I Leave Gentoo |
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| zx2c4 wrote: | | The portage tree is slowing, emerge is broken, and internal politics seem to plague every other part of the project... |
Do you have any data to show that the portage tree is slowing? Also what exactly do you mean by the tree "slowing"? Are packages coming into the repositories 2 days after a release rather than 1? 
Is emerge really broken? If you have a problem with it then you could file a support request on these forums and get help. 
For me, I'll always stick to Gentoo, but most of the problems you mentioned look groundless to me.
As for Uber leaving, he may keep on development of baselayout2 despite his resignation from gentoo. Do not despair yet.
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blubbi
Guru
Joined: 27 Apr 2003
Posts: 564
Location: Halle (Saale), Germany
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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Ther are many of these discussions around like this.... every time a dev leaves gentoo...
There is something going wrong, but it does not help to just complain and seed fear!
Instead of leaving, help out in the community!
I, for many reasons, will stay on the ship and help out wherever I can, regardless what happens.
And I'll stay with portage, I grew up with portage (since gentoo 1.4-rc) and I love portage.
regards
blubbi
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RayDude
Advocate
Joined: 29 May 2004
Posts: 2073
Location: San Jose, CA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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The whole point of a community is to stick together through good and bad times.
Raydude
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zx2c4
Developer
Joined: 09 Jun 2005
Posts: 177
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 5:20 pm Post subject: Re: Roy is gone... Should I Leave Gentoo |
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| Quote: | | Are packages coming into the repositories 2 days after a release rather than 1? |
Many packages have gone unmaintained -- it just isn't as bleeding edge anymore. That's why all of the overlays have sprung up.
| Quote: | | Is emerge really broken? If you have a problem with it then you could file a support request on these forums and get help. |
YES. It absolutely is. Open up at that tar and look at the code -- to quote another: | Quote: | It is a huge mess of spaghetti procedural code with no underlying design. It relies upon weird quirks in its own behaviour all over the place, so any change is liable to cause huge breakage in seemingly unrelated areas. It is almost entirely undocumented, and the internal names are perverse and often do not reflect what the code now does.
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| Quote: | | As for Uber leaving, he may keep on development of baselayout2 despite his resignation from gentoo. Do not despair yet. |
What if he doesnt?  |
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Carlo
Developer
Joined: 12 Aug 2002
Posts: 3356
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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Roy pushed for POSIX instead Bash (and the GNU toolset) for the repository - and wasn't fond not to be met with sympathy for it. Given that his reasons are to have the tree avail- and usable with a pure *BSD toolchain, it is a safe bet to say you are totally misinformed (as the alternative is being complete braindead), to start a poll, listing a number of exclusive GNU toolchain distributions to switch to.
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EzInKy
Veteran
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 1742
Location: Kentucky
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 5:55 pm Post subject: Re: Roy is gone... Should I Leave Gentoo |
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| zx2c4 wrote: |
Many packages have gone unmaintained -- it just isn't as bleeding edge anymore. That's why all of the overlays have sprung up.
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Personally I'd rather see more stuff moved to overlays and have the devs concentrate on the core system. Up to date install CDs and rock solid kernels are far more important than spinning cubes and flying toasters.
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YES. It absolutely is. Open up at that tar and look at the code -- to quote another: | Quote: | It is a huge mess of spaghetti procedural code with no underlying design. It relies upon weird quirks in its own behaviour all over the place, so any change is liable to cause huge breakage in seemingly unrelated areas. It is almost entirely undocumented, and the internal names are perverse and often do not reflect what the code now does.
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I certainly hope that astute observer is helping with refactoring the code then. A good method might be to start looking at the backend modules and rewriting them in C with consistent ABIs. The biggest problem I've seen is everytime someone talks about problems with Portage they also talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater and want to discard the whole thing.
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What if he doesnt?
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The same as any open source code, someone else could work on it.
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d2_racing
Bodhisattva
Joined: 25 Apr 2005
Posts: 13047
Location: Ste-Foy,Canada
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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| RayDude wrote: | The whole point of a community is to stick together through good and bad times.
Raydude |
Yeah ! We are in the same boat  |
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zx2c4
Developer
Joined: 09 Jun 2005
Posts: 177
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Carlo wrote: | | Roy pushed for POSIX instead Bash (and the GNU toolset) for the repository - and wasn't fond not to be met with sympathy for it. Given that his reasons are to have the tree avail- and usable with a pure *BSD toolchain, it is a safe bet to say you are totally misinformed (as the alternative is being complete braindead), to start a poll, listing a number of exclusive GNU toolchain distributions to switch to. |
I do not shy away from Gentoo for the same reasons as Roy; I shy away because I have seen the Gentoo dev community fall to pieces over politics, and the recent departure of Roy has shaken me up a great deal, as I considered him one of the top developers. |
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gerard27
Advocate
Joined: 04 Jan 2004
Posts: 2377
Location: Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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@blubbi
++
Gerard.
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To install Gentoo I use sysrescuecd.Based on Gentoo,has firefox to browse Gentoo docs and mc to browse (and edit) files.
The same disk can be used for 32 and 64 bit installs.
You can follow the Handbook verbatim.
http://www.sysresccd.org/Download |
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Carlo
Developer
Joined: 12 Aug 2002
Posts: 3356
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| EzInKy wrote: | | Personally I'd rather see more stuff moved to overlays and have the devs concentrate on the core system. Up to date install CDs and rock solid kernels are far more important than spinning cubes and flying toasters. |
Someone has to come up with this idea every now and then, but it's - ummm - not well thought out. You can't express dependencies across different repositories, there is no sane way of stability/quality/integrity ensurance. It would mean more work, more overhead and less stability. Or to put it short: It's completely stupid. Even the overlays we have, which are not strictly development or local overlays, are a PITA and shouldn't exist (imho).
| zx2c4 wrote: | | I shy away because I have seen the Gentoo dev community fall to pieces over politics |
This particular case is not politics, even though Roy seemingly thinks so. It's a disagreement about a technical question, as I mentioned above. Everyone in this community is free to leave whenever he wants. It happened, happens and will happen that developers leave (be it for a while or forever), no matter what the reasons are. Move to greener pastures, when you don't like Gentoo as a distribution anymore, but making this up to a single developer is silly.
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Phenax
l33t
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 972
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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| My system is working fine, always has.. |
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Genone
Retired Dev
Joined: 14 Mar 2003
Posts: 9559
Location: beyond the rim
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 10:06 pm Post subject: Re: Roy is gone... Should I Leave Gentoo |
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| zx2c4 wrote: | | Quote: | | Is emerge really broken? If you have a problem with it then you could file a support request on these forums and get help. |
YES. It absolutely is. Open up at that tar and look at the code -- to quote another: | Quote: | | It is a huge mess of spaghetti procedural code with no underlying design. It relies upon weird quirks in its own behaviour all over the place, so any change is liable to cause huge breakage in seemingly unrelated areas. It is almost entirely undocumented, and the internal names are perverse and often do not reflect what the code now does. |
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a) being "broken" is something completely different to not having a pretty codebase (which is effectively what the quote says)
b) that really sounds like some of ciaranm polemics, not really an objective source of information |
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John R. Graham
Administrator
Joined: 08 Mar 2005
Posts: 10593
Location: Somewhere over Atlanta, Georgia
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, what he said! Seriously, Portage has made enormous strides over the last roughly 18 months, thanks to Zmedico. In my recent experience, reported bugs are generally addressed quickly and the new feature releases have been quite regular.
- John |
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timeBandit
Bodhisattva
Joined: 31 Dec 2004
Posts: 2719
Location: here, there or in transit
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 10:33 pm Post subject: Re: Roy is gone... Should I Leave Gentoo |
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| Genone wrote: | | Quote: | | It is a huge mess of spaghetti procedural code with no underlying design. It relies upon weird quirks in its own behaviour all over the place, so any change is liable to cause huge breakage in seemingly unrelated areas. It is almost entirely undocumented, and the internal names are perverse and often do not reflect what the code now does. |
a) being "broken" is something completely different to not having a pretty codebase (which is effectively what the quote says)
b) that really sounds like some of ciaranm polemics, not really an objective source of information |
You have a good ear (eye).
| zx2c4 wrote: | | I am very concerned about the future of Gentoo, and what to do with my computing. Will Gentoo recover? |
We hear Gentoo "takes full responsibility for [its] behavior" and has checked into rehab with Britney Spears and Lindsay Lohan, where it is undergoing treatment for an unhealthy obsession with pythons.
Gentoo isn't dying, it's maturing. Some discord and instability is an inevitable part of the process.
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EzInKy
Veteran
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 1742
Location: Kentucky
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Carlo wrote: |
Someone has to come up with this idea every now and then, but it's - ummm - not well thought out. You can't express dependencies across different repositories, there is no sane way of stability/quality/integrity ensurance. It would mean more work, more overhead and less stability. Or to put it short: It's completely stupid. Even the overlays we have, which are not strictly development or local overlays, are a PITA and shouldn't exist (imho).
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Well Redhat has built a fairly successful business out of maintaining a "core" distro, and even Ubuntu uses a layered approach with its universe/multiverse thing. The whole point is to increase quality by not trying to support everything and the kitchen sink, but just enough for the user to create a usable system from which to build from. Gentoo already has the herd system which could easily be adapted to such an approach and overlays could be used to develop new talent in much the same way as Debian's mentoring system does.
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cctsurf
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 12 Oct 2006
Posts: 123
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 11:31 pm Post subject: Re: Roy is gone... Should I Leave Gentoo |
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I too am disgruntled concerning recent developments in gentoo. I don't know anything about politics in Gentoo, I have been very thankful for the work and usefulness of portage. This distribution has allowed me to run old/cheap hardware using my one modern system to build and update many of my ancient computers and make them very useful to me.
I am concerned about current policies in bugs and in with the way in which toolchain updates have been and continue to be treated by portage. I have already been forced to move one of my systems to ubuntu due to intractable errors in xorg, even after 2 full system rebuilds, bug posts, and a change in video card. I later ran into errors in builds, with a known fix, but the bug in the end pointed upstream, saying that it was a problem in the kernel-headers, but was not willing to apply a known patch to the portage tree to make it work.
Anyway, I'm sorry to expose my bile here, but I have been frustrated for some months now, and I am trying other distros right now to see where I will go, I would love to stay with Gentoo, but until these "Growing Pains" or becoming mature or whatever  as someone has noted above, finish up, I am slowly being forced to move computers to another distro to have workable systems. 
Someone else has noted that the devs should concentrate on the core system and allow the overlays to cover the esoteric stuff, I guess I would be in favor of this, perhaps a broadened approach at portage could include overlays, allowing for cross-overlay dependencies. I don't know, things just worked in 2005.0 when I moved from fedora, and I really appreciate the ability to optimize the programs that I have with Gentoo. I hope these growing pains can be overcome.
Thanks,
James Grossmann |
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zx2c4
Developer
Joined: 09 Jun 2005
Posts: 177
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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| john_r_graham wrote: | | Yeah, what he said! Seriously, Portage has made enormous strides over the last roughly 18 months, thanks to Zmedico. |
This is good to know. I wonder what in particular...
| timeBandit wrote: | | Gentoo isn't dying, it's maturing. Some discord and instability is an inevitable part of the process. |
When do you suppose the instability will end?
What are your opinions on Sabayon? |
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tanderson
Retired Dev
Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 193
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 12:45 am Post subject: |
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| zx2c4 wrote: | | john_r_graham wrote: | | Yeah, what he said! Seriously, Portage has made enormous strides over the last roughly 18 months, thanks to Zmedico. |
This is good to know. I wonder what in particular... |
1. SLOT deps
2. IUSE defaults
3. Upcoming sets support
4. Upcoming GLEP 42 news items.
5. LICENSE masking
6. A FEATURE that automatically rebuilds packages with SONAME changes
Most of this stuff was pulled from http://planet.gentoo.org/developers/genone/2007/10/23/portage_2_2_preview
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timeBandit
Bodhisattva
Joined: 31 Dec 2004
Posts: 2719
Location: here, there or in transit
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 1:20 am Post subject: |
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| zx2c4 wrote: | | timeBandit wrote: | | Gentoo isn't dying, it's maturing. Some discord and instability is an inevitable part of the process. |
When do you suppose the instability will end? |
Some time after the project grows a management structure that enjoys a broader base of support, power and respect than present appearances suggest.
| zx2c4 wrote: | | What are your opinions on Sabayon? |
I haven't any.
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John R. Graham
Administrator
Joined: 08 Mar 2005
Posts: 10593
Location: Somewhere over Atlanta, Georgia
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 1:59 am Post subject: |
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And, one of my personal favorites, collecting up all the einfo and ewarn messages and redisplaying them at the end of the emerge. 
- John |
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zx2c4
Developer
Joined: 09 Jun 2005
Posts: 177
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 2:49 am Post subject: |
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| Any headway in the area of enormous (and long overdue) performance improvements? |
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d2_racing
Bodhisattva
Joined: 25 Apr 2005
Posts: 13047
Location: Ste-Foy,Canada
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 2:55 am Post subject: |
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| zx2c4 wrote: | | What are your opinions on Sabayon? |
I compare Sabayon like I compare Ubuntu to Debian.
Ubuntu and Debian are from the same arch...the same package manager etc...but they are 2 distincts distribution.
Sabayon is a Gentoo portage base, but Sabayon is more a friendly Gentoo like Ubuntu is to Debian.
And for the record : Sabayon is not a real Gentoo, like Ubuntu is not a real Debian.
In fact, if Sabayon is a Gentoo, why they don't merge them together ?
The same goes to Debian and Ubuntu. |
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steveL
Watchman
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:29 am Post subject: |
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| timeBandit wrote: | | zx2c4 wrote: | | When do you suppose the instability will end? |
Some time after the project grows a management structure that enjoys a broader base of support, power and respect than present appearances suggest. |
Please check this topic if you're bothered about there being enough respect in the Gentoo community; there hasn't been a flamewar on the dev m-l for a while, and I for one hope it stays that way, but don't have that much faith in human nature (so I, for one, support the m-l being moderated like the forums.)
Wrt Roy, I too think he's one of the top devs, and am really sorry to see him go. I didn't agree with his push for Posix SH in all ebuilds, since it would IMO lead to longer maintenance times, and there was no real use-case that couldn't be addressed by simply installing BASH for the build process. (Aliases for sed, awk and find etc are not exactly hard either.) Personally I feel that he should have accepted that the other devs didn't want to write in SH; I don't see others not accepting your pov to be a reason to leave. (Being told No isn't that big a deal.) But it's his decision, and hopefully he'll come back at some point, as so many others have done.
Portage is streets ahead of what it used to be, there's useful cross-pollination with pkgcore so next-gen stuff does come in (see Genone's list, for a start.) Meantime, we use update to work alongside portage and automate the decisions we would normally take. |
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vermaden
Apprentice
Joined: 27 Jul 2005
Posts: 168
Location: pl_PL.lodz
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:50 am Post subject: Re: Roy is gone... Should I Leave Gentoo |
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| zx2c4 wrote: | | I am very concerned about the future of Gentoo, and what to do with my computing. Will Gentoo recover? Should I switch to another OS/Distro? |
Gentoo will live as it lived before, but you may find FreeBSD better suited for your needs (or not of course), I also used Gentoo in the past and when I started to use FreeBSD it astonished me how things can be done in such simple and logical way, here is some info about FreeBSD, but as you added poll option about FreeBSD you may already know that source:
http://people.freebsd.org/~kris/scaling/7.0%20Preview.pdf
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