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ghost_o
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 10 Jul 2002
Posts: 119
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 Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 4:11 pm Post subject: Back from Fedora |
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I must say that with the release of 2006.0, I got pretty frustrated with Gentoo.. I have been a user for quite some time (1.x) days and love Gentoo, but the USE flag extravaganza that seems to be going on lately is very frustrating to say the least. I can re-emerge the same package 1 month later to update it and there are 5 new USE flags I have to set.. It's getting pretty ridiculous to have to emerge everything verbosely first so I can modify my make.conf to suit things..
So, I use RH everyday at work for our products and thought I would try out Fedora again.. Last time I tries it was release3, and it is nice, but a little slow. Plus they are the linux nazi(s) kinda like Microsoft of Linux if you will. Not adding support for mp3, wmv, etc.. Thinking they are gonna change the world. While I agree with them that other codecs are better, they will have to admit that nearly 100% of the files shared on the internet rely on codecs they do not supply..
Needless to say - after a week of using it - and 4 other respositories to get the packages i want the way I want them makes editing my make.conf seem trivial. Plus teh speed of Gentoo obviously..
I am back! |
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nixnut
Bodhisattva
Joined: 09 Apr 2004
Posts: 10974
Location: the dutch mountains
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| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I can re-emerge the same package 1 month later to update it and there are 5 new USE flags I have to set. |
Have to set? USE flags are for enabling optional things. You can set them, you don't have to set them.
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anello
Guru
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 557
Location: EU -> DE -> Stuttgart
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| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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Why don't you use /etc/portage/package.use ???
You don't have to apply the USE Flags to all your apps.
BTW Welcome back!!! 
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DieselPower
Apprentice
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
Posts: 216
Location: TN
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| Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 3:49 am Post subject: |
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Gentoo forever...  |
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krigav
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 10 Nov 2005
Posts: 121
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| Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 11:10 am Post subject: |
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These "I-left-Gentoo--tried-another-distro--now-I'm-back--Gentoo-rulez!!!" threads are getting really, really tiring.
Guys If you like to show your gratitude for gentoo then please just use these great system and help other newbies to be able to do the same.
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BlackEdder
Advocate
Joined: 26 Apr 2004
Posts: 2588
Location: Dutch enclave in Egham, UK
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| Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 11:20 am Post subject: |
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| If you don't want to chat about why people use gentoo, why they think it could be better, why they are coming back, then ignore the gentoo chat forum, where *shockingly* we chat about our experiences with gentoo. |
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PaulBredbury
Watchman
Joined: 14 Jul 2005
Posts: 7310
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| Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 11:52 am Post subject: Re: Back from Fedora |
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| ghost_o wrote: | | It's getting pretty ridiculous to have to emerge everything verbosely first so I can modify my make.conf to suit things.. |
| ghost_o wrote: | | Needless to say - after a week of using it - and 4 other respositories to get the packages i want the way I want them makes editing my make.conf seem trivial. |
See the contradiction here? |
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krigav
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 10 Nov 2005
Posts: 121
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| Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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| BlackEdder wrote: | | If you don't want to chat about why people use gentoo, why they think it could be better, why they are coming back, then ignore the gentoo chat forum, where *shockingly* we chat about our experiences with gentoo. |
I don't have any problem with chating about experiences with gentoo! The thing is just that this post is the kind of post the appears every few weeks:
It always has the same pattern: somebody leaves gentoo, he comes back after some time and finds out how l33t gentoo is. Often (not always) there are no really facts why this person switched (back to) gentoo. From my point of view It's more the "Hello everybody, now I'm using gentoo again, because XYZ is bloated. Please notice this!" thing.
I'm of course happy that this persons like gentoo, but it's really not noteworthy to scream it out loud.
Just imagine when everybody who try to use {zsh,audicious,SciTe,emacs} instead of {bash,xmms,kwrite,vi} and after some time would come back to use bash again would place a thread like "Return to {bash,xmms,kwrite,vi}", where he just says "I tried {zsh,audicious,SciTe,emacs} , now I'm using {bash,xmms,kwrite,vi} again, because {bash,xmms,kwrite,vi} is so good!". In MY eyes this things are really not worth the bandwith (not even for the gentoo chat).
Yes maybe you're right that I should ignore some stuff, especially this kind of (in my eyes) not very usefull threads. I hope nobody feels personally offended in any way. Because this post has the same worth/value in this gentoo chat forum like all the other threads/posts in here.
So, If you don't want to chat about why people don't like these kind of "I'm back" threads, why they think this threads are useless, why they are coming back to read the threads in the gentoo chat forum even so some threads are not so usefull, then ignore the gentoo chat forum, where *shockingly* we chat about our experiences with gentoo users that leave and come back to gentoo every then an now.
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loki99
Advocate
Joined: 10 Oct 2003
Posts: 2056
Location: Vienna, €urope
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| Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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| If you want to chat about why people don't like these kind of "I'm back" threads, you should start your own thread instead of hijacking this one. |
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krigav
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 10 Nov 2005
Posts: 121
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| Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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| loki99 wrote: | | If you want to chat about why people don't like these kind of "I'm back" threads, you should start your own thread instead of hijacking this one. |
Sorry, I didn't wan to hijack this thread, but I wanted to answer to BlackEdder's post. Also I think that this topic isn't worth an own thread, because everybody made his position clear. So from my side this topic is closed. Back to the important stuff!
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sternklang
Veteran
Joined: 10 Sep 2005
Posts: 1641
Location: Somewhere in time and space
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| Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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Back to our scheduled program, already in progress...
I switched to Gentoo a little over a year ago, after running RedHat and FedoraCore systems for years (I still maintain a few for clients). I wouldn't call them the MS of Linux but I find their approach to package management and "foreign" repositories frustrating and time-consuming. Even with the vast improvement of yum over up2date, I've still had to deal with dependency hell and conflicting libraries between the official repositories and dag or livna.
Gentoo is so easy to manage in comparison. Long compile times are a small price to pay for the flexibility, configurability and beautifully-designed package management here. And being able to get the latest bleeding edge stuff like Xgl/Compiz working earlier than in most distros is an added bonus, and a reminder of where the real innovation in computing is happening today.
Finally, the community here is just amazing, both users and developers. Just try to get help on the RedHat mailing lists sometime if you want a major lesson in incivility and impatience with less-than-expert users. The contrast couldn't be greater -- technical superiority aside, it's the generosity of spirit in the Gentoo community that's the main reason for using Gentoo, at least IMHO.  |
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ghost_o
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 10 Jul 2002
Posts: 119
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| Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 1:29 am Post subject: |
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| sternklang wrote: | Back to our scheduled program, already in progress...
I switched to Gentoo a little over a year ago, after running RedHat and FedoraCore systems for years (I still maintain a few for clients). I wouldn't call them the MS of Linux but I find their approach to package management and "foreign" repositories frustrating and time-consuming. Even with the vast improvement of yum over up2date, I've still had to deal with dependency hell and conflicting libraries between the official repositories and dag or livna.
Gentoo is so easy to manage in comparison. Long compile times are a small price to pay for the flexibility, configurability and beautifully-designed package management here. And being able to get the latest bleeding edge stuff like Xgl/Compiz working earlier than in most distros is an added bonus, and a reminder of where the real innovation in computing is happening today.
Finally, the community here is just amazing, both users and developers. Just try to get help on the RedHat mailing lists sometime if you want a major lesson in incivility and impatience with less-than-expert users. The contrast couldn't be greater -- technical superiority aside, it's the generosity of spirit in the Gentoo community that's the main reason for using Gentoo, at least IMHO. |
I agree completely.. I us ethe term MS of Linux due to their quote on mp3 from their website faq.. You are correct though - using livna broke my 2.14 gnomoe system rapidly with FC5... I set aside a 4xprocecssor zeon @ work to compile my packages, so it's not that bad..
And liek quoted previously by others, the support community is great here, so portage/package problems have workarounds and fixes quickly.. The price of getting the system you want is worth it.
Thanks Gentoo |
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Q-collective
Advocate
Joined: 22 Mar 2004
Posts: 2071
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| Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 5:36 pm Post subject: Re: Back from Fedora |
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| ghost_o wrote: | | It's getting pretty ridiculous to have to emerge everything verbosely first so I can modify my make.conf to suit things.. |
Ever tried ufed or profuse? (The Gentoo devs should really include one of these by default). |
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ghost_o
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 10 Jul 2002
Posts: 119
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 4:03 am Post subject: Re: Back from Fedora |
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| Q-collective wrote: | | ghost_o wrote: | | It's getting pretty ridiculous to have to emerge everything verbosely first so I can modify my make.conf to suit things.. |
Ever tried ufed or profuse? (The Gentoo devs should really include one of these by default). |
ufed - not in some time, profuse - never - will research them a bit.. The standard defaults are usually good, but just the multimedia experience is missing by default..
There are now 2 differrent USE flags for nvidia in the current tree as well as win32codecs not being on by default, etc....
The core OS is solid - picking auth/udev/hal, etc are great, but from a desktop perspective, I think more unification needs to be done..
IE - there are different USE flags for nvidia in mythtv and the others. The GUI installer is great with a complete list of use flags, but stage3 installs who recompile for prelinking and better optimizations have no clue of what the current use flags are without the -v flag on emerge..
I can work around that pretty easily, but consistency is what it is all about. I know portage is the bridge between BSD and Linux flexibility, but to be hones, BSD does not have these shortfalls.... No worry though - it is still worth it. Just kinda time consuming when you want to emerge a new system and have to go through 200 packages of USE flasg to see what new is in there..
In the end though, the polished product shines,, All I can say.
-Greg |
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brims
Guru
Joined: 19 Apr 2004
Posts: 492
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 6:00 am Post subject: |
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| nixnut wrote: | | Have to set? USE flags are for enabling optional things. You can set them, you don't have to set them. |
If you don't set them you don't have things like printing enabled. After realizing all that the default set of USE flags have disabled, I have a huge list of flags. As for using /etc/portage/pacakge.use, you know how often I'd have to be screwing with those if I didn't just use /etc/make.conf.
And I run emerge -pv when installing anything so I don't get screwed.
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sternklang
Veteran
Joined: 10 Sep 2005
Posts: 1641
Location: Somewhere in time and space
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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| brims wrote: | | As for using /etc/portage/pacakge.use, you know how often I'd have to be screwing with those if I didn't just use /etc/make.conf. |
It's not that bad, really. I have 1000+ packages installed on my system. I have 37 USE flags in make.conf (for things I know I want global support for) and 68 lines in package.use. That's not a very high percentage of packages that need this kind of attention, and keeping things fairly lean hasn't impacted the functionality at all. Plus, this makes me think about tradeoffs of performance/size/functionality and how different packages relate to each other, which has given me more knowledge about my system than I would have had otherwise -- and that's surely one of the great things about Gentoo.
| brims wrote: | | And I run emerge -pv when installing anything so I don't get screwed. |
Yes, or -av, which (running ~arch portage 2.1) I have in my EMERGE_DEFAULT_OPTS. |
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sebv
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 14 Jan 2005
Posts: 78
Location: Savoie (France)
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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Since I tried gentoo I think i realy discover Linux...
For me USE flags is the greatest things gentoo can do, just with a little word you can get the install you want for all package or just once...
try GENTOO one day and get it for life....
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brims
Guru
Joined: 19 Apr 2004
Posts: 492
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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| sternklang wrote: | | It's not that bad, really. I have 1000+ packages installed on my system. I have 37 USE flags in make.conf (for things I know I want global support for) and 68 lines in package.use. That's not a very high percentage of packages that need this kind of attention, and keeping things fairly lean hasn't impacted the functionality at all. Plus, this makes me think about tradeoffs of performance/size/functionality and how different packages relate to each other, which has given me more knowledge about my system than I would have had otherwise -- and that's surely one of the great things about Gentoo. |
I've got a lot of USE flags in /etc/make.conf, I have 5 lines in /etc/portage/package.use for packages which I don't want a use flag for. 68 lines is a lot, maybe not for how many packages are installed, but still a lot. When I have something I want supported, I typically want it in everything.
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Hydraulix
Guru
Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 447
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| Posted: Mon May 01, 2006 10:08 am Post subject: |
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One thing I did like about Fedora was having a system log mailed to you daily. This included ssh attempts, how much space is left on all filesystems, what users logged in and so forth. Anyway we can have that in Gentoo?
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sternklang
Veteran
Joined: 10 Sep 2005
Posts: 1641
Location: Somewhere in time and space
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| Posted: Mon May 01, 2006 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Hydraulix wrote: | | One thing I did like about Fedora was having a system log mailed to you daily. This included ssh attempts, how much space is left on all filesystems, what users logged in and so forth. Anyway we can have that in Gentoo? |
| Code: | | emerge sys-apps/logwatch |
I think there is nothing in Fedora you can't get in Gentoo. |
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at240
l33t
Joined: 12 Aug 2005
Posts: 603
Location: UK
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| Posted: Mon May 01, 2006 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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| sternklang wrote: | | I think there is nothing in Fedora you can't get in Gentoo. |
I got thoroughly hacked off with Linux in Fedora.
I don't get that in gentoo!   |
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sternklang
Veteran
Joined: 10 Sep 2005
Posts: 1641
Location: Somewhere in time and space
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| Posted: Mon May 01, 2006 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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| at240 wrote: | I got thoroughly hacked off with Linux in Fedora.
I don't get that in gentoo! |
Well, Gentoo puts all power in the hands of its users, so after making some quick config change on my home machine in the wee hours of the morning, I do occasionally get hacked off at me. |
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Hydraulix
Guru
Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 447
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| Posted: Tue May 02, 2006 9:36 am Post subject: |
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| sternklang wrote: | | Hydraulix wrote: | | One thing I did like about Fedora was having a system log mailed to you daily. This included ssh attempts, how much space is left on all filesystems, what users logged in and so forth. Anyway we can have that in Gentoo? |
| Code: | | emerge sys-apps/logwatch |
I think there is nothing in Fedora you can't get in Gentoo. |
Thanks. I'll check it out.
Edit: That's perfect! Thanks again.
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omp
Retired Dev
Joined: 10 Sep 2005
Posts: 1018
Location: Glendale, California
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| Posted: Tue May 02, 2006 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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| sternklang wrote: | | I think there is nothing in Fedora you can't get in Gentoo. |
/me thinks of something to make that statement false... AIGLX!
Then again, there is always Xgl.
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sternklang
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Joined: 10 Sep 2005
Posts: 1641
Location: Somewhere in time and space
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| Posted: Tue May 02, 2006 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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| omp wrote: | /me thinks of something to make that statement false... AIGLX!
Then again, there is always Xgl. |
Coffeebuzz's xgl overlay includes versions of xorg-server and compiz that support aiglx via a USE flag. I use xgl/compiz-quinnstorm, so I have no idea if aiglx works or how well it works, but it's there if you want to test it out (assuming you're not running nvidia/ati binary drivers, which don't currently work with aiglx on any platform).
Now, RedHat/Fedora is the most widely used distro, especially in business, so there's got to be something out there that runs on Fedora but doesn't run on Gentoo. |
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