Gentoo Women

cokey · Advocate Joined: 23 Apr 2004 Posts: 3355

can we have the gentoo colours changed to pink then?
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Fion · n00b Joined: 10 Jun 2006 Posts: 19

1) Forget the discrimination! It's a derailing issue and not relevant to the original discussion.

2) I don't know whether Christel is aiming for females already interested in Gentoo, but I'm interested in how to make Linux more accessible/attractive to the female gender, so I'm arguing from that POV.

I assume - hey we can't avoid every assumption and gender-based prejudice in this discussion - that most females aren't really interested in maintaining/optimizing a computer. It's a tool and as long as it does what they want it to do, they could care less about how it does it or what it takes.
Just as I don't really care that much about my shoes as long as I have something comfortable to wear. Nor do I care much about cars, watches, soccer or my workout regimen (which is close to non-existant).
I simply don't find it warranting much attention as my main interests lies elsewhere.

So if we could get some kind of feedback from non-Linux using females as to what they use their computer for, maybe we could aim to please. Especially if we could prove that Linux would be easier to use, because of better stability and less mainteance than MS Windows, while still fullfilling their needs.

christel · Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 12:07 am Post subject: Re: Bad Idea...

mw007 · Apprentice Joined: 08 Nov 2004 Posts: 260

elvis_a_presley · Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 1:42 am Post subject:

christel · Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 1:59 am Post subject:

mw007 · Apprentice Joined: 08 Nov 2004 Posts: 260

I don't know anything about females being alienated in the GNU/Linux world, since I have never seen it first hand. However, I attended a university in the USA (not the largest, not the smallest) and know for a fact that many females are discouraged from joining the computer science major because it is predominantly male territory.

I don't believe it is this way because of sexism, it may just be something that males are more into by nature (tinkering with things), and once an study is filled with males, females just tend to stay away. Who really knows. It's not just computer science that is this way, take a look at the engineering majors (at least in the US, I don't know how it is in other countries).

In the computer science major for the year 2004 at my school, there were 674 males in the computer science major and only 7 females. Rather lop-sided, eh?

massysett · Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:30 am Post subject:

elvis_a_presley · Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 4:10 am Post subject:

Dralnu · Veteran Joined: 24 May 2006 Posts: 1919

Christel, correct me on this if I am wrong, but this is what I'm thinking she's got planned:

A program to give women a FOOTHOLD in the GNU/Linux commun.

Linux is, sad to say, a mostly male group of geeks/nerds who either have too much free time on their hands, or power-hungry comp users in one sense or the other. I know I fit into the latter.

Go into a hardware store (follow me on this) and look around. Not many women, is there? Go into a shop. Not many women, is there? Linux is to computers what tools/shops are to cars and any other form of constucting.

Most women, when something breaks, get frazzled and don't know what to do, so they have someone else fix it for them instead of sitting down witha Chilton or Haye's manual and try to figure out whats wrong. They just want it to work. Some women who do, end up having to try and wander around the edges to keep out of sight because of (I had a friend who had this happen) the fact most men in the area didn't think they are capable of the work, when they were.

I personally think there is a link between the two (personally, I don't consider females capable of the things alot of men do, but then again I am willing to admit when I'm wrong, and I also know there are exceptions to such things, and try to help them whenever I can. I am, by no means, what I would call sexist, but this is from what I have experienced, and the same can be said for men cann't do what women can), and think that making an effort to bridge this gap is well worth the effort.
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joshin · n00b Joined: 09 Apr 2006 Posts: 13

Gee, the first thing I thought of when hearing about "Gentoo Women" was how great it would be.

I could optimize my wife!!! Maybe get her to perform more times in a time cycle and require fewer interrupts.

But then I realized that was silly and that I really didn't want to be stuck with the kids while she was emerging system.

/me escapes out the back door since I'm sure someone will take me seriously.

PS. I did tell her about this post. And yes, I did get -THAT- look and then a laugh.

Dralnu · Veteran Joined: 24 May 2006 Posts: 1919

spielc · Guru Joined: 20 Apr 2004 Posts: 452

Well i don't think the idea is a bad one... As I'm a computer science student i know how many guys are in class and how many women... I have to say that there are ALOT more guys than women and i don't think THE problem are the things we are learning

Furthermore i guess the development process might get new and intresting ideas and points of view so maybe (hopefully) we can prevent this from happening in the future...

renrutal · Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 7:46 am Post subject:

I do believe it's a great idea. Mostly, groups like these are created not to tell apart people, or to discriminate, but to find other people who share the same traits, the same life experiences, and to support each other better than other groups, since they do understand themselves better.

Note as the paragraph above can be applied to any group, may it be for women or not, be gentoo related or not, be linux, be tech-oriented, may it be in english, japanese, portuguese, etc...

This is no different than any other groups ever created, there's no special treatment, no special requirements. There's no need to think it's discriminatory(in the bad sense of the word) because it's very much the opposite, it only helps everyone to seek the same objectives.

duozmo · Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:06 am Post subject: Sign me up

The reason you might want more women in the project is because they bring a whole different characteristic and philosophy to the community aspect of Gentoo. Code is code, no matter who wrote it, but when you are organizing, that's where the benefits of women can show up. They are generally warmer, more receptive, and more diplomatic. Of course there are many exceptions; I know plenty of girls who would punch me if I called them "warm." But on average, that's what they bring to the table.

I've seen a lot of posts (particularly in Slashdot discussions of this issue) where men say things like, "If women want to be part of the club, they need to act like men." Or, "Your gender shouldn't matter, period." The problem is these thoughts aren't realistic. Women are biologically different upstairs from men. Some of them are naturally comfortable in geek life as is, and wouldn't find any use for a women's group, which is just fine. But most women (the 98% that aren't in Gentoo) are rightly turned off by the gangs of clueless guys who are unable to adapt to their presence. By giving them a forum where they can group together, you give them a chance to make a noticable impact on the community. You give them hope they could enjoy being part of Gentoo because of the community, rather than in spite of it.

The only question is, does the Gentoo community want that? Or would we rather be a locker room of code jockeys? Personally, I say bring on the women. I'm sick of the I'm-smarter-than-you atmosphere. No doubt many people disagree.

kashani · Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:13 am Post subject:

Ha, some of these replies are just plain awesome. I can wait to tell the anthropologists I know that Neanderthals are alive and well. They'll be arriving shortly to poke and prod some of your brains. Sheesh.

I've got a few stories on perceptions. When I first got into motorcycles other guys generally assumed I knew what I was doing. I practically had to shout "I was a nerd in high school. I took Calculus, not shop class. Can someone explain this timing belt thing to me before whatever happens when they go bad happens!"

Even better was the time I showed up at a LUG meeting after putting my old Honda back together. People can't believe you've been an Unix admin for nine years when you look like a grease monkey complete with dirty fingernails and reeking of brake fluid. Again I took the straightforward method and disagreed loudly with the pompous Redhat sale engineer who knew about half of what he should have. It was a bit over the top, but he had it coming.

These preconceived notions can cut many ways.

With five sisters (doctor, teacher, biologist, accountant, and executive assistant) I have no illusions about what women can and can't do. They can do anything they want. It's fun to watch a woman's face as I pepper her with questions once I realize she knows more about some aspect of *nix or bikes than I do. The flip side is that it's a tell of how little they are regarded as an authority by their peers that they enjoy me bothering them for hours on end.

Unfortunately many women get treated differently with the old "I'll just do it for you" or the "it's too complicated to explain kernel configs/carb syncing" and to see them drift away from something they liked because others made it less than enjoyable. Or they stick with it and become bitter and complain that their ideas are ignored because they are women. Or see genuine attempts to help as trying to marginalize them. I think in all these cases they'd have faired better if they had had a place to ask questions, get help, poke around, whatever without some guy hanging over their shoulder waiting for a mistake so he can jump in and save her.

If any group can help people become more confident in their skills before rudely introducing them to the world at large I'm all for it.

kashani
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Dralnu · Veteran Joined: 24 May 2006 Posts: 1919

Here is my thoughts as of now:

We need to start something already

Its fairly apparent that probably about 65-75% are with this, or indiffrent, and the other 25-35% are against it. No one will ever please everyone, and its a waste of time to do so.
I for one think that if we went ahead and spent some time trying to figure out what to do (and hopefully finding a few more women who will help with this) and got a decent basis for a mission statement and maybe some for of hierarchy for everything so that when someone says something, someone somewhere has a solid answer.

You can say this is jumping the gun (I've done that a few times in my life, so saying it doesn't hurt me, lol), but personally I think at least getting the ball rolling, so to speak, would be worthwhile. christel has already had to re-explain things two or three times, and people still don't seem to totally understand it (not saying I do, but I feel like I've got a good grip on things, but I could be wrong), so having a mission statement AT LEAST would keep things in line in that area (and writting it out kind of like a law to reduce confusion, and adding in hyperlinks to definitions of words to keep things from being too misunderstood).

Again, I may be jumping the gun (and I very well could be, lol), but thats my thoughts on it.
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Fion · n00b Joined: 10 Jun 2006 Posts: 19

So we need to DO SOMETHING! What do we do? Any specific suggestions? Do we make a "Female? New to Gentoo? Want non-sexist and down-to-earth help?"-subforum and pin it? What?

Dralnu · Veteran Joined: 24 May 2006 Posts: 1919

Zmyrgel · Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 9:45 am Post subject:

I personally think that Gentoo needs the already mentioned mentor program. Not just for womens but all those new to gentoo. I think this would make gentoo more approuchable. My first experience to gentoo was not very encouraging. I booted with my CD and got to the root prompt and didn't know how to continue from there. So I switched to other distros like SuSE and Slackware where the installation prosedure was much easier.

Basicly I would think a IRC channel dedicated to those new to gentoo would be a good place. In the public channel all the noobs could discuss their problems in general and if they need more assistance, they could request a mentor. These mentors would then start a private discussion with the newbie and go through the installation and basic linux usage step by step with the noob. This would give a nice start as I for instance don't make a thread about every single problem I have as they usually are quite minor issues, easily solved by someone who knows how. Like what's the command to copy a directory to somewhere else.

I have been a sort of a mentor. I was contacted through e-mail by user in another linux forum who needed aid with SuSE at the time. I told what I knew and the problem persistet. We then exchanged messenger addresses and have talked since. This isn't very attractive option as you would need to exchange private information with the mentor so I would recommend the IRC approuch.

A note that if that mentor channel is made and all then it shouldn't be used by the more experienced users to solve their issues but to keep it's energy focused on solving the basic issues with linux like compiling the kernel and explaining why it's done and how.

I don't mean all women don't but I think most would rather get things going straight out of the box so they don't like to read some installation instructions for hours to get some basic issue to work. But women as said are social so this kind of interaction would be more approuchable than any Gentoo for Women forums and all.

One thing to keep in mind, again as already said, the channel shouldn't be used as a dating service. This isn't a big issue if the channel is left for all newbies and not just for women.

I personally would love to see more women using Gentoo and linux in general so I'm willing to give my support for this effort.

Gusar · Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:20 am Post subject:

cokey · Advocate Joined: 23 Apr 2004 Posts: 3355

DoctorMO · n00b Joined: 16 Jul 2004 Posts: 15 Location: London

Dralnu, I've been to the shops and I see lots of women shopping in them, so I'm not sure what you mean when you say women don't go to shops, especialy clothes shops ect.

I think we are all just procastinating now, let us just welcome the action to bring in new members and make everything more friendly.
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