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aidanjt
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Joined: 20 Feb 2005
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Location: Rep. of Ireland
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 Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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| electrofreak wrote: | | AidanJT wrote: | | meh, etc-update and dispatch-conf both suck at managing config updates. |
People always say such things... but I've really never had a problem with just plain old etc-update. I've never even tried dispatch-conf. |
Until you update 6-odd daemons with 30-odd configs to update, make a mistake and break your whole server. It's a well acknowledged problem. It's not a big a deal with desktops since the number of files is minimal and if your desktop goes down it's not the end of the world, pop into terminal, fix the problem, done. Accidents like that on servers are much more devistating, prolonged downtime can cost businesses millions in lost revenue, guess what happens to the administrator when that happens. |
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electrofreak
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Joined: 30 Jun 2004
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Location: Ohio, USA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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I run a server, desktop, and laptop, and have done so for several years... I have never had a problem.
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aidanjt
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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| electrofreak wrote: | | I run a server, desktop, and laptop, and have done so for several years... I have never had a problem. |
Same here, but two people running their own little home server isn't the same as a team of administrators running an enterprise network. Mistakes can and will happen in this kind of enviroment for one reason or another. A mistake for me will only mean slight loss of productivity, and maybe a bit of internet downtime. A mistake in an enterprise can mean losses in the millions from loss of productivity and/or lost revenue and cost people jobs/family/livelyhoods. For an administrator of an enterprise network, often the easiest and less risky way to handle config updates is just discard the new ones entirely, but that can mean over time they can be missing important comments, changes in config syntax, new/invalidated options etc.. etc-update and dispatch-conf is just not an efficent way of dealing with config updates at all. |
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chris.c.hogan
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Joined: 02 Oct 2005
Posts: 189
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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I have a cron job that does emerge --sync every Thusday at 4AM on my main server. I share /usr/portage via NFS to the rest of the network. I have a cron job on each machine runs emerge -pvu world every Friday at 4AM. The script sends an email with the results.
I manually sync if I'm after a package and the ebuild in my portage is broken, or out-of-date.
I see a lot of people here sync once a week, 3 or 4AM, on weekends I'd guess. Are there statistics available for portage server load? It might be interesting to see how the load varies according to time-zone. It wouldn't be an accurate picture of Gentoo use across the globe. There are far too many people who don't fit the above profile. However, it would be interesting... Besides, it would be good to know just how much stress the servers are under, and when. |
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think4urs11
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Joined: 25 Jun 2003
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Location: above the cloud
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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| AidanJT wrote: | | Accidents like that on servers are much more devistating, prolonged downtime can cost businesses millions in lost revenue, guess what happens to the administrator when that happens. |
Simple - (s)he'll get fired because of beeing dump. One who implements changes/updates (even minor ones) directly in production environment without proper testing them *before going live* has missed one essentail part of the job.
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aidanjt
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Think4UrS11 wrote: | | AidanJT wrote: | | Accidents like that on servers are much more devistating, prolonged downtime can cost businesses millions in lost revenue, guess what happens to the administrator when that happens. |
Simple - (s)he'll get fired because of beeing dump. One who implements changes/updates (even minor ones) directly in production environment without proper testing them *before going live* has missed one essentail part of the job. |
To err is human, leaving opertunity to make big errors is unnessecery and just puts enterprise admins right off a system. It's like putting a soldier in a mine field, no matter how much training he has and how cautious he is, there's still a good chance he'll blow himself up. Being 'dumb' has nothing to do with it, mistakes can and do happen. Given an option between walking a known minefield and walking an unfortified field, guess which one the soldier will pick. |
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kraut
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Joined: 03 Jun 2005
Posts: 179
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Think4UrS11 wrote: | | AidanJT wrote: | | Accidents like that on servers are much more devistating, prolonged downtime can cost businesses millions in lost revenue, guess what happens to the administrator when that happens. |
Simple - (s)he'll get fired because of beeing dump. One who implements changes/updates (even minor ones) directly in production environment without proper testing them *before going live* has missed one essentail part of the job. |
thats what he told. so he is *not* using etc-update on a production server.
i myself am not using it at all. i do the changes to the conf's manually. the conf in question will be copied to *.ok. and even if everything fails, i am able to step one ebuild back.
never ever had a problem with this.
OTOH: most daemons work with the old config anyway 
you seldom need to change config files, really..
OK, a few days ago you did have to add something to postfix. though.. it worked anyway, just you got a warning in the logs.
apache, php and whatnot is working since month with old configs!
Last edited by kraut on Sat Jul 08, 2006 10:34 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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aidanjt
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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| kraut wrote: | thats what he told. so he is *not* using etc-update on a production server.
i myself am not using it at all. i do the changes to the conf's manually. the conf in question will be copied to *.ok. and even if everything fails, i am able to step one ebuild back.
never ever had a problem with this.
OTOH: most daemons work with the old config anyway |
Not when there's a change in the syntax, or change in option behaviour that you miss because you deleted the changed comments. My point here is config handling on Gentoo (and most other unicies) is needlessly monogomous and error prone. |
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kraut
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Joined: 03 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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| AidanJT wrote: |
Not when there's a change in the syntax, or change in option behaviour that you miss because you deleted the changed comments. My point here is config handling on Gentoo (and most other unicies) is needlessly monogomous and error prone. |
hmm.. a change in syntax happens rarely. really.
not that you shouldnt test in a testing environment, though..
what i was going to point out is:
before you let etc-update or dispatch-conf haveing a go. check if your old conf works! if it does, you are done. |
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aidanjt
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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| AidanJT wrote: | | My point here is config handling on Gentoo (and most other unicies) is needlessly monogomous and error prone. |
There's no reason why a standard syntax can't be put in place to simplify and automate config management.
Last edited by aidanjt on Sun Jul 09, 2006 1:02 am; edited 1 time in total |
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think4urs11
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Joined: 25 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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| AidanJT wrote: | | Think4UrS11 wrote: | | Simple - (s)he'll get fired because of beeing dump. One who implements changes/updates (even minor ones) directly in production environment without proper testing them *before going live* has missed one essentail part of the job. |
To err is human, leaving opertunity to make big errors is unnessecery and just puts enterprise admins right off a system. It's like putting a soldier in a mine field, no matter how much training he has and how cautious he is, there's still a good chance he'll blow himself up. Being 'dumb' has nothing to do with it, mistakes can and do happen. Given an option between walking a known minefield and walking an unfortified field, guess which one the soldier will pick. |
If you do proper testing beforehand you wont 'walk blind'. To stay in the picture the testing does the job a mine-clearing tank does. There's simply no need to run blindly through a mine field when you can plan your steps.
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aidanjt
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Think4UrS11 wrote: | | If you do proper testing beforehand you wont 'walk blind'. To stay in the picture the testing does the job a mine-clearing tank does. There's simply no need to run blindly through a mine field when you can plan your steps. |
See above post. |
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kraut
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 12:04 am Post subject: |
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| <lol>, you are even quoting yourself - are you from portugal? <SCNR> |
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aidanjt
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Location: Rep. of Ireland
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 12:13 am Post subject: |
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| kraut wrote: | | <lol>, you are even quoting yourself - are you from portugal? <SCNR> |
It just saves me having to repeat myself, it gets boring after awhile. |
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Penguin of Wonder
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Joined: 17 Jan 2006
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Location: West Virginia
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 3:21 am Post subject: |
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| xef wrote: | | I know what it is... We need girlfriends |
That cracks me up, because when I'm with my gf I'll sync once a month maybe, when I'm not with her, its everyday. How sad is that? Linux becomes my gf when she's gone.
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Trent Arms
n00b
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 8
Location: Ohio, USA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 4:09 am Post subject: |
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| When I sync I do it right before I install or recompile something, but only if more than two days has passed since my last sync. It's worked fine up to now... |
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IcedStitch
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Joined: 14 Nov 2003
Posts: 11
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 4:11 am Post subject: Once a week |
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| Once a week, and then emerge -uD world |
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wols
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 06 Nov 2005
Posts: 92
Location: Franken
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 9:33 am Post subject: |
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Hello from Germany,
once at week on saturday my desktop. On sunday my notebook and my VDR uses the desktop as rsync-server.
I look with 'emerge -vpDu system' and 'emerge -vpDu world' for news but run it not every week.
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My_World
Guru
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Location: Kalahari Desert
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 10:16 am Post subject: |
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Depends on circumstances.
If I synced today and something broke I will sync the next day to get the fix (~x86) otherwise maybe twice a week, usually Mondays and Fridays.
On my laptop I only sync once a week since it is frustrating to wait for it to compile all the new packages.
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Venceremos
n00b
Joined: 14 Jan 2005
Posts: 45
Location: Gdansk, Poland
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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| I sync only if I feel the need to change/install something. Usually that doesn't happen so offten. Lets say once a month. |
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paul.marsh
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Joined: 09 Feb 2006
Posts: 35
Location: Sydney
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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| About once per month; more frequently only if I need something not in my local tree |
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znmeb
n00b
Joined: 29 Dec 2003
Posts: 25
Location: Beaverton, Oregon, USA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 5:34 am Post subject: Sync frequency |
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I have three machines running Gentoo. One of them I sync just about every day. The others I sync whenever they are up. I run mostly ~x86 level software on all of them, with the exception of some critical things like GCC. It's pretty rare that I get into trouble with ~x86, and it's even rarer (now) that I can't fix it.
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chrismortimore
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Joined: 03 Dec 2005
Posts: 721
Location: Edinburgh, UK
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| Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 9:38 am Post subject: |
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| Spin-Doc wrote: | I sync twice a day, but emerge i only do once a day  |
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Gentoo "netiquette" say only sync once a day because it strains the servers too much? I thought I read that in the MOTD that pops up when you sync...
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Monkeh
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Joined: 06 Aug 2005
Posts: 1656
Location: England
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| Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:02 am Post subject: |
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| Unless you need to, you should only sync once a day per machine (and NFS export /usr/portage or run a local server if you're running more than a couple of machines). More than that is generally unneeded, and does put strain on servers for no good reason (and unless you're using a local server, your own or at a uni for example, you should use rsync.europe.gentoo.org or whatever is appropriate for your location, get a different server each sync). |
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dreeh
n00b
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 10
Location: Germany, Bavarian, Wolfratshausen
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| Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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i love updates  my box is syncing every day. |
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