GWN: Automated kernel configuration?

[nerdbert]

[ot]ok, just wrote about half a page just to witness my wlan usb nic crashing my system. Ok, but I'm smarter now - next time I buy some hardware I'm really going to emphasize linux compatibity... guess I just have to write it all again.[/ot]

just installed genkernel to see what it looks like. As you might remember I already posted that I don't like this idea. But I think it's important to know the tools which I criticize.

Configuring the ac-sources broke halfway, but it didn't matter because I just wanted to take a look at the .config files.
As Genone mentioned before this looks like typhical redhat kernel. CPU is beeing set to i386, almost every never-used-feature(TM) is compiled in as a module while some things which are essential for me are not going to be compiled at all.
This version looks more like a proof-of-concept than a 1.0 - don't get me wrong - the gentoo devs are certainly going to implement hardware detection and other smart stuff in upcoming releases. I just think it doesn't deserve a 1.0 at the moment (at least it is masked).
I don't know if this is really going to improve gentoo installs. It mostly shifts the work from kernel configuration to modprobe related stuff.

I2O, IrDA and ISDN are compiled as a module, while I2C support is omitted. I'm lazy and as a newbie I would prefer automatic kernel configuration. But it would have taken much longer to figure out why my tv-card isn't working (lack of I2C bit banging device support).

It would be really cool if genkernel would not compile the kernel, but would open make menuconfig and do some color highlighting on the points which should really go into the kernel. This way a newbie could set up a kernel much easier and would still have the power to tweak a little and set up support for devices and dependencies which no hardware detection would ever find.

[skyguy]

I'm with CaptJack and KiTaSuMbA. I'm a total n00b, a finance guy who once had a computer programing class in basic back in 1977. I succeeded in getting gentoo 1.4_rc2 up after about a week of wandering blindly through the forums and man pages. Only had 5 or 6 kernal panic/reconfigure menuconfig cycles in the process. I'm in process on a 1.4_rc4 on a dell inspiron laptop (pIII), and was initially impressed by the autodetection stuff at the beginning. Cool! I thought. This will make menuconfig a piece of cake! Then I got there, and hey! where's all that hardware? I don't have a clue as to what chipsets are inside the box, and am not eager to take my ratchet-shaft driver-with-the-magnetic-clip-for-the-phillips-head (doh!) to the box to see...
You know, if autodetect can tell which chipsets/hardware I have, then it ought to pre-fill those options in menuconfig. THEN let me tweak (or break, in my case ) those settings.
Also, YES! to more documentation. The notes that were there in menuconfig kept me from throwing in the towel. More is better. For all the guru's out there who don't need the help, perhaps there could be a flag to set along the lines of:

[guy]

autoconfiguration has its place.. namely, Windoze, OS X, and even redhat/mandrake/suse. Linux is pretty well represented in terms of OS's that autoconfigure. This just isn't what Gentoo is... that's why we're all here..... right?

[skyguy]

I dunno. I'm here because I'm wired to lean out toward the bleeding edge - doesn't matter if it's skiing, sailing, flying, equipment of any kind, my basic instinct is to go for the best performance regardless of practicality. I'm old enough now that experience is beginning to temper that tendency somewhat. But for me, I figured that if I was going to make the effort to move away from microsoft, I might as well invest in my learning curve - hence gentoo. I would be shocked and amazed if we all (us gentooers) had identical motives for going with gentoo - and I'm not suggesting that you say we do. I made the final decision for reasons of support, community, portage and performance, in that order. IMHO, the auto-configuration dohicky would be a wonderful thing, but like all things gentoo, needs a champion, a developer, some one to run with it. If I had a clue as to what I was doing, I'd be interested. Maybe by this time next year...
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[broschi]

I didn't moved to Gentoo because it's an elite distro but because it is EASY TO USE! Let me repeat this: I didn't chose Gentoo because it's an elite distro but because it is EASY TO USE!!. If I don't wan't any automated-config-this-thing-stuff I'd go with Linux From Scratch.

Think I'll just emerge some random ebuild and sit back in my big fat ass and wait. If it fails I'll emerge rsync and if it still doesn't work I'll wait for a new ebuild to fix this and then it'll work. Yes, I love Gentoo.
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[marshall_j]

I don't think there is too much to worry about in terms of Gentoo being over run by n00bs.
A source based distro is always going to have a niche appeal because of the time involved in compiling etc. If a person doesn't feel like spending time specifying the settings in the kernel and recompiling it themselves they probably won't want to compile Mozilla before using it either.
Therefore I question the problem people have with a autoconf kernel utility. I really can't see it changing Gentoos demographic much if at all.

[gnosys]

Just another opinion, for whatever it's worth (no more or less than anyone else's)...

I think it all depends on your vision of Linux for the future. Do you see Linux as your membership card to a special club where you can sit around with your fellow geeks and show each other how smart you all are, or do you see Linux as the operating system you want to run in order to let your computer do the things you need it to do for you as efficiently, reliably and cheaply as possible? Do you want it to thrive and grow in popularity, or do you want it to remain a well-kept secret, like that secret fishing-hole or camping spot that you don't want to see get over-crowded? Either way, it's your choice, but you can't have it both ways. If you want it to become more popular, then it has to be more accessible to the masses, and that means easier install and config. The fact that Linux can do everything that most people do with their computers, and do it as well or better than any other OS out there, is going to go forever un-noticed by 99% of users if they are afraid to ever install it. Sure, it's cool to be a part of this sort of exclusive community of bright, knowledgeable people who have come through their trial of fire and discovered this fabulous OS, but if Linux is truly The Better Way, shouldn't everyone be using it? I got into Linux as a hobby more than anything. I didn't need to be immediately productive in Linux for work or personal use, so I didn't care how hard it was to configure and maintain, and I loved that feeling of overcoming a challange, or making a discovery, when I would get something to work. But for most people, a computer is just a tool, like an automobile. They want to get in and go. I don't want to be a certified technician just to be able to drive my car. Imagine if, when you go to the dealership to buy your next car, they just give you a big crate of parts and a shop manual and send you on your way. That would be the automotive analog to a Gentoo install. People no more want to use their computer thay way than they would want to buy a car that way (although it would do wonders for traffic and air pollution). All I'm saying is that it depends on what you want out of Linux, and where you want it to go. Do you see it as an end in itself, or only a means to and end? If the former, that's fine and I understand where you're coming from; just don't let me hear you complaining that Microsoft is taking over the world and trying to squash Linux in the process, because you aren't doing anything to help the situation.

[uzik]

[davisjs]

I beleive that Gentoo should have some sort of GUI Install..like an ncurses one for example. I mean, there are some people who like to spend several hours tweaking and compiling their system. There are others who want *something* up as a base system fairly quickly so they can start to use it and tweak. There are ways to accomodate everyone here. I think..though this isnt a direct comparison, the GRP approach is the best way to go. By that I mean, GRP is something that is useful to pretty much everyone...i mean I dont know anyone who likes to manually compile X or KDE. The GRP provides some convenience and some reduction of installation time, and it is totally optional. I think that this principle should be continued with a ncurses installer. I mean, look at the slack installer. It is ncurses based, and is easy enough for a newbie to figure out basically.

In short, there is a lot of room here for both ways. Gentoo I argue needs to be able to be used by as many users as possible. The slippery slope argument does not apply here in terms of the new users. Sure you could have some idiots coming to the forums, but I would rather have idiot noobs on than all elitists like on the Debian forums. Also, as has been previously stated, the more noobs that learn linux and Gentoo, the more ideas for really cool things to add to gentoo will be in existence

Just another person's two cents.....

[dirtboy]

All these arguments against helper applications basically boil down to "The install finally got easy enough for me. Stop there." Do you remember what it was like installing Linux 6 or 7 years ago? Most of you don't. Those who do will tell you things are much better now, in every distro.

The fact is every program you use is nothing more than code written to make it easier for you to get your computer to perform a specific task. So what if someone decides a particular task (installation) is a little more tedious than it should be, and codes a program to make that task easier? Every time you run make menuconfig or make xconfig, you are using a program that makes it easier to configure the kernel. It just happens to be easy enough for you to use, but might not be easy enough for someone else. I'm sure the same arguments we see here were posted on the kernel mailing lists when those tools were created.

Its a freaking computer. By itself, it can still perform all the tasks you are used to, it would just take a lot of coding and a lot of knowhow and a lot of time. So you put on an OS that can take advantage of code other people have already written to make that task easier. You don't like it, choose another or write your own. Graphical install? You betcha, bring it on! Kernel Autoconfigurator? Heck yeah, that will make upgrading kernels much easier. Gui? Man, that sure is pretty!

Thank you, programmers. Most of us appreciate the work you put in to make our lives easier. If you want to make it even easier, then by all means, go ahead. I for one still look at this as a gift and not a right.

[Edit] Guess I should have looked at the dates before posting. This was linked from another thread and I just got really mad reading it. Didn't mean to bump this. Sorry, dead horse.

[nerdbert]

Update: Just installed Debian for the first time of my life. I was amazed about how quickly this installation progressed. But after installing I started to get angry, because I dont understand their init system and I dont have a clue how to choose a softwares version to install.
Its possible to get a ncurses based installation which will make things easier, but I doubt that this will encourage newbies to use gentoo. (we could as well build a ncurses based gui which will ask you the same questions the doc is supplying right now - but I dont see a reson to do this, because this would not make a difference to reading the doc.)
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[Ziraku]

Here's my thoughts for life and gentoo plain and simple:

As long as it's not imposed on me in any way whatsoever, it's ok.
Choice is good, as long as it goes both for and against.
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[endgamer]

[Azzuron]

just wanted to throw out my opinion on this. I havnt read all that has been said on this post, so probably could have been said already. I feel that options should be availible. Currently, the genkernel utility is a neat tool that works. I do not know the details of it, how much it may slow down my system or if it may make any particular portion of my os unstable, this is why i choose not to use it on my desktop. I do however use it when i want a fast install of the OS, kernel config takes far to long to do it by hand. I have used the genkernel utility to setup my webserver. it was fast it worked, and i havnt had any problems with it. I will probably manually configure my desktop though, as i want it to do just what i want. I think options are good, to allow for the most compatibility to any particular situation a user may be in.

If an installer comes out, i dont know if i would use it, depends on how it works. really, i enjoy the command typing, and doing everything by hand. If the installer presents this in a semi graphical easy to use way... (such as a config tool for make.conf, i might just take itup, so long as i still have the majority of the control where i want it.
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--Azzuron

[Savve]

I am definatly behind ebrostling and telex4 on this one. The fundamental point they are making is that, using elitist arguments for not automating the installation process is just silly.

No one is taking away the point that people learn alot from the current installation process. Though there are other reasons to why one would want to use an automated process, then that you just don't know how to install things manually.

A few reasons to why I would want such a tool is would be

* Installing several machines at work
* Doing a manual install needs one to be alert of what is going on, to move on to the next step.
* An easy interface to automate installations is a very, very powerfull tool for many sysadmins.
* If there is no reason to do things, why do it? If there are ways to do things just as well but with less work, doing that would be more intelligent.
* Most things in gentoo are very intuative, it is only logical that the installation process will follow in the same footsteps.

Some of the previous posters seem to think that automation by default, has to take away alot of configurability. I would urge those people to take a look at portage and to understand why it is so great. It is living proof that automation can be very configurable and usable, for anyone.

The discussion seems to be very focused on new users, while there are many old users who could really benefit from a tool like this.
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