GWN: Automated kernel configuration?

[StrCrssd]

With apologizes to the developers, I think this is a HUGE step in the wrong direction. One of the things that keeps these forums nice, clean, and useful is that we get, primarily, users who have already installed gentoo (and hence completed the configuration). This is a very valuable aspect of the system.

In my opinion, the root problem with this (and also the installer) is the same root problem that is plauging linux (and its applications): a want to become so user friendly that your grandmother can use it. This is simply not what linux is good at, and in trying to force it to do so, you destroy its benefits. The last time I checked, KDE and GNOME were just as unstable as windows, in addition to being slower.

*nix, and linux in particular, is designed to be a VERY versatile system for the experienced user. It does not include hand-holding tools because holding a users hand almost always yields negative side effects in the forms of stability, lack of versatility, or inhibiting the speed of the system.

Also, by holding our users hands we reduce the learning that occurs during system installation and reduce the experience level of our users, which leads to more effective noise in our email lists and forums (restatement of first paragraph).

In my experience, the three linux communities that adhere to these ideals (in order of most adherance to least) are Gentoo, Slackware, and Debian. It dismays me to see that we are poisoning our distribution by adding all of these "user friendly" features. Gentoo is a solid, source-based distribution that lends itself exceptionally well to power users and techies. We should leave the windows replacements to a fork in gentoo or some other distribution. I think we have a very nice niche right where we are.
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StrCrssd

Give a man enough rope, he'll hang himself. Teach a man to make rope, he'll hang other people.

[nerdbert]

I totally agree, but positive aspects also do exist: we will be the only ones still knowing how to configure a kernel after this 'feature' is released. I'm really lucky I installed gentoo before any automatisms replaced skills.

I guess this is just the way it goes. Anybody who managed to install Linux under Minix knows more than us and we know more than anybody who will install linux in the future...
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I'm really wondering what Lovechild is doing nowadays...

[telex4]

While I disagree completely with your elitist attitude towards free software, and GNU/Linux in particular, I don't think Gentoo should focus on user-friendliness, at least not in the main branch.

For me, the strengths of Gentoo are its bare-bones install (without any distribution-specific changes to packages), its configurability, and portage. Focusing on user-friendly installers and configurers might damage this.

However, I definitely think that, so long as it doesn't significantly hit the main branch development, branching off and creating a more newbie-friendly Gentoo, with a nice installer and other configuration tools, would be a really worthwhile project, especially if in doing so the packages could still be untainted (so you could easily just dump the utilities and have the Gentoo system we all love).

[nerdbert]

please don't tell us you disagree. We all agree that open software should be user friendly, but gentoo is a completely different topic.

Gentoo isn't made for my grandpa (who uses MacOS 9 by the way) and it isn't made for people which like to have a system which works out of the box... Gentoo is about tweakability, which cant be archived by any automatic procedure...

but this isn't an elitist way of thinking, it is more like a mentality, which forces you to spend much more time with your system than others...
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I'm really wondering what Lovechild is doing nowadays...

[nrl]

I agree with telex4. We must also remember that automatic kernel configuration is a feature that makes gentoo more powerful and for those who don't need it I am sure you will not be forced to use it. Anyway why should we build a wall to keep inexperienced users out? The way I see it such an attitude is bound to backfire in the long run and leave us with a smaller user base and thus less eyes to find bugs and less developers even (OK I will concede those who cannot compile a kernel are less likely to become developers but people do learn).
The only thing that does concern me is that I think the Gentoo community seems to be currently (based on what I see in this forum, on the mailing lists and in the IRC channel) made up of people of varying experience with one thing in common, we are all keen to learn and willing to invest at least a little time to do so. I hope that this feature does not set us off on the road to a Gentoo where users expect everything to be done for them.
Anyway relax it's just another feature .
One little gripe however is that I think this feature is off little or no use to current users and thus perhaps there are other features that are more worthy of developer time, although it is their time and I am not going to suggest we boss them into doing something they don't want to do .

[nerdbert]

but this is exactly the question: are we ready and do we like to become a mainstream distro like any other? Gentoo is about individuality whilst mainstream is about making it possible for anyone.

I would opt for debian instead of gentoo if I would want a distro with easy package management. Some differences must exist

don't get me wrong - I just believe that it isn't a bad thing to have a small amount of users. Otherwise you will have to measure any OS by M$ user base
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I'm really wondering what Lovechild is doing nowadays...

[telex4]

nerdbert, the original poster (StrCrssd) said: In my opinion, the root problem with this (and also the installer) is the same root problem that is plauging linux. He went on to rant about how GNU/Linux, and therefore (to follow up the argument) Free Software should just shirk the less computer-able users and concentrate on pleasing him, and others with his level of expertise, his tastes, etc.

That is just sickening elitism.

And even in the case of Gentoo, I see no reason why sticking with the status quo is a reason and end in itself. What is wrong with building on the system as it is, and trying to reach out to a new target audience? Like I said, so long as it doesn't really hit on the development of the main branch of Gentoo, making the project far worse for Gentoo's main audience, I see no problem with it.

[nerdbert]

sure, there has to be progress, but I believe this is the wrong direction
I really don't know what to say to change your opinion - there is just one quote from the bible (I'm not religious, but it touches my spot):
What would it profit a man to win the world and lose his soul?

If you like the concept of bigger is better you could as well advertise the use of rpm under gentoo. Gentoo wasn't made for people with little experience and if it will ever be as easy to install as RedHat it won't make any sense to install it instead of RH, too.
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I'm really wondering what Lovechild is doing nowadays...

[guero61]

I am behind nerdbert. I think that we are trying to become too mainstream. In a shameless plug for my own thoughts, I would call attention to my post here about a graphical installer.

Let Gentoo branch, if need be, but the most advanced, bleeding-edge, optimized linux will not always have a newbie-friendly face. I don't care what you say -- consoles and vim sure look friendly to me, so it's user-friendly to me!

What I wouldn't mind seeing added to the boot CD's are some hardware-detection algorithms; add pci-utils or something. The ouptut of lspci can so easily be matched (or not) to an existing driver. Let the support take care of the newbies, not hand-holding software.

Now, for a rant.
What really pisses me off are these FUDers that keep bitching about "the future of Gentoo, the future of Gentoo!" Damnit, how the hell have we been growing with so little "newbie friendliness"? I'll tell you -- it's not the goddamned install, it's not wasting our developers' time with writing kernel autoconfigurers, it's our DOCUMENTATION, our COMMUNITY SUPPORT, and PORTAGE. So it takes you longerand has more options than your garden-variety ****can distro? Maybe we should have an intro to the install document, "THIS WILL TAKE A LONG TIME, IF YOU HAVE NO PATIENCE, GENTOO IS NOT FOR YOU. GO BACK TO WINDOWS OR ONE OF IT'S LINUX DERIVATIVES: REDHAT OR MANDRAKE."

What am I trying to say in so many angry words? Simply put, they will still continue to come. No amount of GUI installation or autoconfiguration crap will change that, only dilute what this distro is good and intended for. You want a different installation scheme? We've given you the know-how, the tools, and a HOWTO; go build your own.

[metalhedd]

Wow, There most definitely is alot of elitism in this thread

A Kernel Autoconfigurator is a good idea, Not the best I've heard, but it sure as hell won't hurt. Just like a GUI Installer, if it makes the install process simpler for some people, without stopping the elitist hardcores from doing it all from scratch, then it's a good idea. Gentoo isn't a club for elitist Linux Freaks, it's a group of people striving to build the Best Operating system they can. Maybe the GUI next liveCD Which includes the Kernel Autoconfig, and GUI Installer can have a warning that says "If you have a problem with a simple GUI Install, due to being an elitist bastard go to:
a) VT1 - for a CLI Install.
b) Debian
c) Hell.

[telex4]

Well I agree in that I don't see Gentoo becoming another Mandrake or RedHat... there are too many fundamental differences between them for that to be the case. And yeah, it'd be wholly counter-productive to go down that road. Gentoo is also always going to appeal to the slightly more techy crowd, since nobody else would care less abour the cool features Gentoo offers.

However I'm sure there's a sizeable fringe who would like to use Gentoo, but who find the learning curve too steep because though they've got experience using GNU/Linux (from, say, SuSE), they've never compiled a kernel or set-up a system from scratch, so it all seems a little daunting. By providing a branch with a GUI installer (that still showed you what's going on, but held your hand), a GUI tool to make configuring portage / the kernel / etc. easier, and other tools that generally made that learning curve a little less steep, Gentoo could reach out to this crowd.

I don't see why that is a problem. It's not changing the philosophy of Gentoo, nor losing Gentoo's soul (nice quote btw ). Rather it is simply broadening Gentoo's appeal, and maybe making life more pleasant for some of those who already use it (not that I'd touch the tools!)

[guero61]

I don't have a problem with a GUI install branch or even some ways to simplify certain steps -- I just feel that we shouldn't dumb down our install for the masses, rather we should rise to the occasion with support and the occasional Really Useful Tool For Newbies, like a kernel autoconfigurator, or a detailed "Install from Knoppix" doc, or some such.

I just fear that if we do one thing, it'll lead to another, and another and...

One reason I spend so much time on these forums seeking to help people in what I know is that I want it to be as newbie-friendly as possible, just by a different means than you guys intend. It just really irritates me when people intimate that "Gentoo is going to die" if it doesn't become as newbie-friendly as possible. Heck, I'll use it until I'm scraping ebuilds off my dentures, if I'm the only one using it. I'm in this distro for the long haul, unless something goes terribly wrong.

Telling people to go to hell because they express an opinion...

[StrCrssd]

Well, it would appear that I'm being called an elitist...I've been called one before...and, quite frankly, if the shoe fits...wear it.

I'm not a terribly experience linux user. I'm getting there, primarily thanks to Gentoo, but then again, I guess that's neither here nor there.

I personally have assisted four people (three of which were non-techies) to convert to Gentoo. I did this because I feel that the Gentoo community, its documentation, and portage were simply the best available. These people were all primarily windows users before converting to Gentoo, and none of them had previous *nix experience. Their primary reasons for switching were the sizable speed gains, the customizable UI, and the ease-of-use that is portage, not because it was easy to install. In fact, three of the four were amazed at the amount they had learned from the documentation (as well as the usefulness of the documentation).

As long as our documentation continues being the best around, and we keep our forums free of the innumerable "why can't I su to root...my linux for dummies book says I should be able to do so..." we will keep our very friendly atmosphere.

During this time, I have also recommended knoppix to another friend who's father wanted something that "just works" for word processing and web browsing. Considering these requirements, I feel that knoppix is a far better distro.

I feel that we need to use the best tool for the job. For a techie, or someone who wants to learn about his machine (or all about linux) then gentoo is the best choice. If you want something that "just works" then go to some other distro.

(Mod: if you wish to redub this thread, or move its contents to some other, more appropriatly titled thread, please do so...)
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StrCrssd

Give a man enough rope, he'll hang himself. Teach a man to make rope, he'll hang other people.

[noff]

I agree with the elitists. If you can't compile a kernel for you system, or understand the systems AND don't want to learn, then you aren't ready for Gentoo. The point is configurability. If you don't want to configure it why do you want to use Gentoo. Gentoo isn't just portage, it is an init system, USE variables, CFLAGS, and choice. If you just want good package management and to be able to choose your files, install debian. If you want to compile from source and customize things install Gentoo. Just be prepared to learn.

Everyone talks about this attitude as being elitist. It isn't elitist it is worry. Everytime anyone make something easier for most people, it is the power users who suffer, because they usually hide the advanced options they wanted, and try to make everything go to a default configuration. That is why people don't want these things because they have been shafted before and like what they have now.

They also worry that if people can enter into Gentoo without the desire to learn that their forums will become diluted with people who just want a quick fix or who don't know better and thrash their systems.

I agree with the worriers and I don't see a problem with this. Configuring and playing with kernels is an important step with Gentoo and I think it should stay the same.
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What Larry was saying is that if you make it too easy for programmers, then poor programmers will be able to do things best left to good programmers, and will inevitably do them poorly. Everyone will suffer in the long term as a result." - Tom Chance

[guero61]

I want to know -- what does Larry the Cow have to say about all this?

[RdsArts]

[broschi]

[dice]

[StrCrssd]

broschi:

I do respect your opinions, I just feel that you are wrong

I think we all need to be aware that eveyrone has opinions that they are well within their rights to express, as long as they don't try to force those opinions on others.

I'm not really trying to be an /elitist/, what I am trying to do is only associate with one of two classes of linux users (these same classes are those who are currently using gentoo w/out the automated tools):

1) the newbie who wants to learn...
2) the one more experienced than myself who can teach me wonderous things...

I feel that once we open our doors to a flood of newbies who heard that gentoo was the fastest linux distro and now want to come and play their games without actually learning anything about linux, my quality of life in the world of gentoo will drastically diminish. Our forums will be flooded with people asking inane questions, taking loads of bandwidth downloading packages that they won't be able to configure, complaining about their system being slow (because they compiled everything with NO optimizations). It will hurt my experience with gentoo, as well as everyone else involved, including the newbie who can't get his questions answered.

That's my feelings on the matter, I am not trying to be offensive, merely pragmatic.
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StrCrssd

Give a man enough rope, he'll hang himself. Teach a man to make rope, he'll hang other people.

[dol-sen]

I agree with telex4, I myself almost gave up gentoo and went back to gentoo because it took so long to figure out what & how to configure things. The install doc's are better now than they were and I've learned a lot in the process. I am now starting to help others now and then that know less than me. I think that a kernel autoconfigurator would be a good tool for newbies to give them a stable kernel from which they can enjoy using gentoo and learn more about linux thru use and tweaking. I also think that such tools should come with a disclaimer at their opening screen that for optimum performance learn what makes a linux kernel tick. Hell I still don't know everything I should do in building kernels, even after the 2 dozen or so this past 2 years.

With the strenghths of gentoo and the efforts of all the developers so far I highly doubt that they would "dumb" down gentoo for everyone including themselves, eliminating what brought them to gentoo in the first place.

Brian

[Evangelion]

My take on graphical installers, ease of use and the like:

Adding ease of use is a GOOD thing, as long as you leave the option to use the not-so-easy-to-use-but-versatile-and-powerful-way-of-doing-thing. I really have no problems if Gentoo 1.6 (for example) would at the very beginning of the installation as the user

"Choose your method of installation:

1. Text-mode (fully featured, for experts)
2. Graphical (easy to use, limited features)"

I fail to see the problem. If the problem is that "Making installation easy would bring hordes of clueless n00bs in here, and I don't want that!", then all I can say is that it reminds me of the elitist attitude Debian seems to be suffering from ("Luckily all the moron-users are now using Gentoo, so we can have our little circle-jerk in peace!").

Some people seem to think that hard of use is feature, not a flaw. I disagree with that. Of course, we all use Gentoo, so it's obvious that we think that Gentoo is easier to use than most other distros (thanks to Portage) and above all, it's faster. Butthat doesn't mean we should just sit back and do nothing. There are tasks that could be automated and steamlines, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Installation of Gentoo has already been simplified. I mean, we have automatic detecion of hardware for example. Should that be removed? After all, it would make installation more difficult, and therefore better? At what point do you say "You shouldn't make the installation any more easier"? Where do you draw that line? At automatic detection of hardware? Automating some trivial tasks? Adding ncurses based installation? Adding a real GUI based installation?

I think that it is not necessary to configure networking with nano for example. We could have a ncurses based dialog that progresses as the installation proceeds, and it would as you to insert your IP-address (or DHCP, insert the default gateway, add hosts and so forth. That would not remove the flexibility of the installation, it would just streamline it a bit.

There are people out there that would love to give Gentoo a shot, but the installation intimidates them (I should know, I was once one of them). But just because they are afraid to give it a shot right now, does not mean that they couldn't become valuable and productive members of the community. I for one would welcome them with open arms.
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[Valen]

I think I'll toss in a couple of pennies.

Looking back on my time as a newbie, I came into linux with a very open mind. I was willing to learn and so I tried starting with one of the harder distros (some version of slackware). But I couldn't get it working although I put lots of effort into it, so I ended up running Mandrake for a bit, then I tried slackware again and got it working. The problem wasn't that I couldn't be bothered to learn all the stuff for slack, it was that there was way too much to do. When I went back the second time, I followed the docs and found it quite easy to install. However, I consider that most of the time I spent using Mandrake, would have been better spent if someone had given me a working slackware installation as a platform to learn from.

I can see gentoo becoming the ideal distribution for open minded newbies, by easing up on the install a bit it would let them get an installation running which they can start learning to tweak. I can't argue with the point that a lot of people will join for a free ride, but I think it will be worth the effort to adapt to a larger community.

Also, I have a feeling the developers have a better idea of what will happen, and apart from that GWN April Fools, they have made a lot of good decisions in the past.

[bsolar]

One thing is experimenting various configuration with an alternate kernel with a working version ready to boot, another is to have to hit the right configuration (usually after half a dozen tries or more for a noob) to be able to boot. Said that I think it's not unreasonable to provide a way to get a basically configured kernel as staring point, just to get a working system. I think the kernel configuration is the harder step in the installation process (unless you have to wrestle with uncollaborating NICS... ) and providing the option of "bypassing" it at least in the beginnig is good (also because it's difficult to help someone building his own kernel, unless you like to type the hated RTFM... )
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I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.

[KiTaSuMbA]

It's the usual mantra again...
"Down with GUI! Down with newbies!"
IMHO, both an installer and a kernel autoconfig tool would be great add-ons _as long as_ they are simply FRONT ENDS to what the real gentoo toolset provides.
I must have compiled more than 100 kernels in the past 4 years but even now I sometimes forget to setup obvious things in there. I can imagine what a freak-out experience this must be for someone that has never done it before and tries to install gentoo. True, if you follow the guide step-by-step there is no real need for a GUI installer but when you get to the kernel you _are_ left on your own. Last month, for the first time in my life I had to use a USB device (we hates them, hates them, hates them!!! - Gollum style ). It's been a circus! How about a first-timer with alsa? Or what about the chipsets for IDE / agpgart? Not everybody buys his box as components to build on his kitchen table like some of us and thus knows every single part they put in, nor most check out the alsa support matrix before buying an audio card. Should we get rid of qpkg because not included in the standard gentoo toolset? How is using USE flags to autoconfigure tarballs _that_ different to a kernel autoconf tool? Or rc-update? Would you like someone to say that "rc-update add <my-stupid-service> default" is for winnies and Real Men (TM) should write their own darn init scripts? If you really think that's the case, please be my gest and stick to LFS or to a slack version 2.x or something. The rest of us might think a distro is a need if you aren't to be a slave serving your box instead of the other way around.
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[StrCrssd]

For some reason, I can deal with installing a pre-built kernel (with every module known to man) as part of the generic install....

A prebuilt vanilla-kernel.

Its low performance, but it does work...and work well. It also provides the newbies a good solid base to start tweaking on.
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StrCrssd

Give a man enough rope, he'll hang himself. Teach a man to make rope, he'll hang other people.