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christel
Retired Dev
Joined: 13 Jul 2005
Posts: 64
Location: England
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 Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 3:13 am Post subject: Gentoo Women - Take Two! |
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Hey all,
We've finally had a chance to look over all the replies to the previous thread[1], we're very happy to find that primarily the idea was met with encouragment and excitement and we believe it is time to get this baby off the ground. Many of you (male and female) showed interest in participating in such an initiative and right now I am calling those of you who did, if you are still keen on participating in any way or form I'd be most grateful if you could drop an e-mail to women@gentoo.org (or directly to me if you prefer, christel@gentoo.org) stating your name, email address, gender, irc nick, forum login and preferrably a few lines about why you want to help out, what you'd like to see us do, any ideas you've got and if you have anything in particular you wish to help out with (any strengths you've got, whats your area of expertise etc).
We've set up a very simple wiki[2] for now, where you are most welcome to come add ideas and thoughts, and a unofficial test planet[3] if you wish to have your blog aggrevated there (just let me know). Generally speaking mind, we do also welcome user blogs to our Larry the Cow community project [4]. in particulary Planet Larry [5]. to get added to Planet Larry, drop an e-mail to beandog@gentoo.org
I hope to hear from all of you very soon, and I'm excited at the prospect to get to work with some of you on this project.
On behalf of Userrel,
Christel Dahlskjaer
[1] https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-3375197.html
[2] http://project.repogirl.net
[3] http://planet.repogirl.net
[4] http://larrythecow.net
[5] http://larrythecow.org
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occ
Apprentice
Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 202
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 5:27 am Post subject: Re: Gentoo Women - Take Two! |
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| christel wrote: | | we're very happy to find that primarily the idea was met with encouragment and excitement |
A quick browse gave 32 Nay, 40 Yeah (distinct users)
or 45/55% with a margin or error of at least* +-12% (*:the sample was not random)
If 'Nay' had been a cadidat for user-rep it would have been elected in 3rd place  |
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blank_vlad
n00b
Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 9:48 am Post subject: Re: Gentoo Women - Take Two! |
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| occ wrote: | A quick browse gave 32 Nay, 40 Yeah (distinct users)
or 45/55% with a margin or error of at least* +-12% (*:the sample was not random)
If 'Nay' had been a cadidat for user-rep it would have been elected in 3rd place |
Please don't inject more of this pedantic silliness into another thread on Gentoo Women. The votes were cast, the project's going forward, and it's time for the naysayers to move on. Do something productive for a change. |
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legine
Guru
Joined: 27 May 2004
Posts: 555
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:08 am Post subject: |
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The post of occ sounds more like it was a good discussion. I personly did not see a vote panel anywhere. I say:
Gentoo is about choice. If 40 people want to contribute it is definitly worth a try.
Dont you think?
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Enverex
Guru
Joined: 02 Jul 2003
Posts: 501
Location: Worcester, UK
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 11:56 am Post subject: |
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| legine wrote: | Gentoo is about choice. If 40 people want to contribute it is definitly worth a try.
Dont you think? |
Not when the time and effort could be contributed to an area that actually needs it. |
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legine
Guru
Joined: 27 May 2004
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Location: Germany
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Not when the time and effort could be contributed to an area that actually needs it.
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Can't follow you.
And which area is more important then improving our comunity? 
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aidy
l33t
Joined: 07 Apr 2005
Posts: 915
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:25 pm Post subject: Re: Gentoo Women - Take Two! |
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| occ wrote: | | christel wrote: | | we're very happy to find that primarily the idea was met with encouragment and excitement |
A quick browse gave 32 Nay, 40 Yeah (distinct users)
or 45/55% with a margin or error of at least* +-12% (*:the sample was not random)
If 'Nay' had been a cadidat for user-rep it would have been elected in 3rd place |
GET A LIFE |
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legine
Guru
Joined: 27 May 2004
Posts: 555
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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Managed to read the HowTo encourage Women for Linux.
And I found this:
| Quote: | 2.9. Reasons women avoid Linux specifically
Linux development is more competitive and fierce than most areas of programming. Often, the only reward (or the major reward) for writing code is status and the approval of your peers. Far more often, the "reward" is a scathing flame, or worse yet, no response at all. Since women are socialized to not be competitive and avoid conflict, and since they have low self-confidence to begin with, Linux and open source in general are even more difficult than most areas of computing for women to get and stay involved in. |
I do not agree. I do not agree with some other parts of the text too. But lets stay with this part.
Why should I help a women knowing that she does not get satisfied by contributing?
I think the Howto has some nice statements but the argumentation of the whys is quite silly and Imho painfull to read.
At least it hurts me!
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quote from Spaceballs:
Dark Helmet:[...] we were told to comb the desert, so we're combing it! [puts down bullhorn] Find anything yet?!
Soldier: Nothing yet, sir. |
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sternklang
Veteran
Joined: 10 Sep 2005
Posts: 1641
Location: Somewhere in time and space
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Enverex wrote: | | legine wrote: | Gentoo is about choice. If 40 people want to contribute it is definitly worth a try.
Dont you think? |
Not when the time and effort could be contributed to an area that actually needs it. |
Surely it's up to those 40 people to decide where and how they want to contribute! Why should your perspective trump theirs?
Aside from worrying about the individual self-determination involved in choosing where to contribute, what is the problem?
Good luck, christel and everyone else working on this! |
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loki99
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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I would also disagree with how things are expressed in this HOWTO. Sentences like.... | Quote: | | Since women are socialized to not be competitive and avoid conflict, and since they have low self-confidence to begin with... |
But what has that got to do with the GW project?  |
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aidy
l33t
Joined: 07 Apr 2005
Posts: 915
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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| maybe a bit of um... how do you properly say nuanciation would be handy in the howto |
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christel
Retired Dev
Joined: 13 Jul 2005
Posts: 64
Location: England
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 4:42 pm Post subject: Re: Gentoo Women - Take Two! |
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| occ wrote: | | christel wrote: | | we're very happy to find that primarily the idea was met with encouragment and excitement |
A quick browse gave 32 Nay, 40 Yeah (distinct users)
or 45/55% with a margin or error of at least* +-12% (*:the sample was not random)
If 'Nay' had been a cadidat for user-rep it would have been elected in 3rd place |
And for your numbers you also looked at the logs of #gentoo-userrel, the userrel@ alias e-mails. and any other conversation off the thread? If you did, I would be slightly concerned considering that some of those aren't available to the public.
Now, there was no vote about GW, nor was there ever intended to be, we asked for input, we got a lot of input, both on the forums, on IRC, and via e-mail. Although some of you favour the forums as your "place of involvement," many of us don't, I am certainly not a forums person, and the only reason the GW discussion was opened here too was to allow as many as possible to give their input regardless of whether they frequented IRC, MLs, Forums or anything else.
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christel
Retired Dev
Joined: 13 Jul 2005
Posts: 64
Location: England
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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| legine wrote: | Managed to read the HowTo encourage Women for Linux.
And I found this:
| Quote: | 2.9. Reasons women avoid Linux specifically
Linux development is more competitive and fierce than most areas of programming. Often, the only reward (or the major reward) for writing code is status and the approval of your peers. Far more often, the "reward" is a scathing flame, or worse yet, no response at all. Since women are socialized to not be competitive and avoid conflict, and since they have low self-confidence to begin with, Linux and open source in general are even more difficult than most areas of computing for women to get and stay involved in. |
I do not agree. I do not agree with some other parts of the text too. But lets stay with this part.
Why should I help a women knowing that she does not get satisfied by contributing?
I think the Howto has some nice statements but the argumentation of the whys is quite silly and Imho painfull to read.
At least it hurts me! |
I am not entirely sure how you came to that conclusion by the above text from Vals howto. Flames can be pretty discouraging regardless of gender, and we certainly see enough of them within Gentoo. And how exactly had anyone asked you to *help* women? And nothing in that text implies that women aren't satisified by contributing.
Otoh, that HOWTO is getting fairly old, it does however raise a fair few points and are alongside a lot of other material a good background read on this subject.
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christel
Retired Dev
Joined: 13 Jul 2005
Posts: 64
Location: England
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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| sternklang wrote: | | Enverex wrote: | | legine wrote: | Gentoo is about choice. If 40 people want to contribute it is definitly worth a try.
Dont you think? |
Not when the time and effort could be contributed to an area that actually needs it. |
Surely it's up to those 40 people to decide where and how they want to contribute! Why should your perspective trump theirs?
Aside from worrying about the individual self-determination involved in choosing where to contribute, what is the problem?
Good luck, christel and everyone else working on this! |
Thank you, and I very much agree. If it is about choice, then surely people must be allowed to choose to contribute to GW rather than where Enverex would like them to contribute. OTOH, nothing is preventing anyone from contributing elsewhere, the idea is that GW will help people find the confidence to contribute to Gentoo in a wider sense. So all around a win win situation, no?
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sternklang
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Joined: 10 Sep 2005
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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| christel wrote: | | OTOH, nothing is preventing anyone from contributing elsewhere, the idea is that GW will help people find the confidence to contribute to Gentoo in a wider sense. So all around a win win situation, no? |
Absolutely -- attracting more women to Gentoo as developers, documenters, arch testers, etc. just increases the overall pool of talent in Gentoo. So some very smart and talented people who are discouraged by cultural issues can end up contributing, which is good for them (since they are expanding their personal and professional horizons, not to mention becoming part of the World's Best Linux Distro TM ) and good for the rest of the community as well (more bugs get fixed more quickly, packages get stabilized faster, the number of "maintainer-wanted@gentoo.org" packages diminish)-- like you said, win-win. |
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legine
Guru
Joined: 27 May 2004
Posts: 555
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | And how exactly had anyone asked you to *help* women? |
Dono by reading what you wrote. Did I get you wrong?
If you have a problem with me then PM me. I do not want to destruct this thread.
We can talk about it. And find a solution I have no problem with letting the GW alone if you think I should. I would be sad about it. But well I have enough other Ideas what I can do
For the Quote.
In my eares due the focus on women the hole part sounds like especially women cannot bear the stupidity of flames and "no answers". And this is the main reason they do not join. I think the formulation of the problem is unfortunate. It could be done a lot better. Well of course not by me, since sometimes I am just simple minded.
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quote from Spaceballs:
Dark Helmet:[...] we were told to comb the desert, so we're combing it! [puts down bullhorn] Find anything yet?!
Soldier: Nothing yet, sir. |
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christel
Retired Dev
Joined: 13 Jul 2005
Posts: 64
Location: England
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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| legine wrote: | | Quote: | | And how exactly had anyone asked you to *help* women? |
Dono by reading what you wrote. Did I get you wrong?
If you have a problem with me then PM me. I do not want to destruct this thread.
We can talk about it. And find a solution I have no problem with letting the GW alone if you think I should. I would be sad about it. But well I have enough other Ideas what I can do
For the Quote.
In my eares due the focus on women the hole part sounds like especially women cannot bear the stupidity of flames and "no answers". And this is the main reason they do not join. I think the formulation of the problem is unfortunate. It could be done a lot better. Well of course not by me, since sometimes I am just simple minded. |
No, not at all, I think I misunderstand what you meant by the whole "I'm not interested in helping women who.." thing.. I'll get back to your e-mails though! 
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aidy
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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| christel can I do something for the project? |
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Q-collective
Advocate
Joined: 22 Mar 2004
Posts: 2071
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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| I fully support the goals of the project and would be happy to participate. |
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christel
Retired Dev
Joined: 13 Jul 2005
Posts: 64
Location: England
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:58 am Post subject: |
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| Aidy wrote: | | christel can I do something for the project? |
Absolutely!
Drop us an email with your information and I'll get you added to the alias, then over the next few days when I've gotten everyone set up I'll start up some discussion!
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vibrokatana
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 4:02 am Post subject: |
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I have a feeling this will either make something interesting and useful or totally irrelevant and laughable.
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jmbsvicetto
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Posts: 4734
Location: Angra do Heroísmo (PT)
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 4:36 am Post subject: |
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christel,
I wish good luck to this project. I have a few questions/suggestions for userrel regarding the discussion on the first GW thread that I will try to present by e-mail. As always, I'll be glad to help out / give back.
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Jorge.
Your twisted, but hopefully friendly daemon.
AMD64 / x86 / Sparc Gentoo
Help answer || emwrap.sh
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playfool
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renrutal
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 135
Location: Brazil
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 7:07 am Post subject: |
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I'm willing to help, however, currently just as lurker-supporter that you might meet in the irc every blue moon Think of me as an 20% backstage worker, 80% cheering fanboy.
Anyway, be sure that I'll spread the word. |
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Dralnu
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Joined: 24 May 2006
Posts: 1919
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 7:16 am Post subject: |
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| Enverex wrote: | | legine wrote: | Gentoo is about choice. If 40 people want to contribute it is definitly worth a try.
Dont you think? |
Not when the time and effort could be contributed to an area that actually needs it. |
If 40 people who don't have much in the name of skills in programming want to help, then there is no reason they shouldn't. They are doing something.
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