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Alvin
n00b
Joined: 23 Nov 2005
Posts: 20
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 Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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| The only reason I'd switch is to shut up the people who attack you for using Gentoo. |
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Headrush
Watchman
Joined: 06 Nov 2003
Posts: 5597
Location: Bizarro World
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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I don't see any chance of me changing from Gentoo anytime soon.
I don't quite understand some of these complaints about Gentoo.
People compile about messing up their productions systems, yet why are they constantly tinkering and doing daily syncs?
(I don't buy the I need an ~arch ebuild, which starts this dependency chain problem for a "standard" setup that most binary distros are running.)
Continual complaints about compile time, but its source based and nothing you can do about that.
On modern hardware compiling in the background doesn't have much effect on overall system performance for foreground applications for the most part either.
The problem is that like any Linux distro, Gentoo has its place and its NOT for everyone. Seems to be an increase in the numbers of new Gentoo users who aren't skilled enough or prepared enough for Gentoo. You help them as much as you can but sometimes it's not enough. So we see more threads about switching to other distros and a lot more hostile posts.
After saying that, for customers I always install PCLinuxOS. Its installs easily and everything needed for an "average" home user just works.
Now if you look at my spare box with PCLinuxOS and my main system with Gentoo, you would be hard pressed to really see any difference between the two.
So the difference between Gentoo and other distros to the end user is setup and that is about it. |
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dmpogo
Advocate
Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 3267
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| PaulBredbury wrote: | | pbardet wrote: | | but it doesn't work when you want to use Linux for productive stuff |
You're not supposed to update a productive Gentoo installation daily - do it e.g. fortnightly. Or, even better, do it when there's a need (e.g. security exploit needing an upgrade). |
Every distribution encourages us to get into a particular for this distribution state of mind. Actually, this is what we like in the distribition first of all - a state of mind it puts us in. And if we match it - we are happy, if not - we feel struggling and eventually leave.
Gentoo definitely encourages to be in tune with your system, keep a hand on a pulse of the new developments and updates.
Say, it gently nudged me to compile my own optimized kernel, thing I was never near during years of RH.
You say fortnight. This is just 10 working days. For a system adminstrator with > 10 machines, it quite a chunk of his time to upgrade them even with this frequency. (I talked about Gentoo with our SA - he is adamantly against it - "I want to install and forget for as long as possible". So he is on FedoraCore) |
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Headrush
Watchman
Joined: 06 Nov 2003
Posts: 5597
Location: Bizarro World
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| dmpogo wrote: | | You say fortnight. This is just 10 working days. For a system adminstrator with > 10 machines, it quite a chunk of his time to upgrade them even with this frequency. (I talked about Gentoo with our SA - he is adamantly against it - "I want to install and forget for as long as possible". So he is on FedoraCore) |
Which backs my statement. Gentoo ISN'T always the best solution for everything and/or everyone, but they choose it anyways and then complain afterwards.
(Not saying it can't be used, just isn't always the best choice.)
No matter how good a distro is, one chosen for the wrong role won't change that. |
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pbardet
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 11 Dec 2003
Posts: 143
Location: wpg, mb
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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| PaulBredbury wrote: | | pbardet wrote: | | but it doesn't work when you want to use Linux for productive stuff |
You're not supposed to update a productive Gentoo installation daily - do it e.g. fortnightly. Or, even better, do it when there's a need (e.g. security exploit needing an upgrade). |
Good advice !!! Unfortunately, when I used to do it whenever I felt like it, as you said, there would be so many changes that I would have a lot of packages to remove to avoid blocks. So now, I update about twice a week, ie when I see lots of packages that need to be updated. I sync daily and generate a the list of packages to updates in my mailbox. Unfortunately, this doesn't work either. When I started using gentoo, there was a lot more serious in the making of that distro. Unfortunately, since the main guy left the boat, I've seen a lot of changes, and not for the good of gentoo. Coincidence, or too much success ? I dont know. I don't even know what is a better choice.
I just know that when I upgrade my system, I spend way too much time looking for answers to issues encountered during the upgrade than using the system. |
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Headrush
Watchman
Joined: 06 Nov 2003
Posts: 5597
Location: Bizarro World
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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| pbardet, I understand what you are saying, but wasn't this a "unique" time in Linux's evolution with major changes to things like gcc-4, xorg-7, etc, that caused more problems than normally would happen with less frequent updates? |
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pbardet
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 11 Dec 2003
Posts: 143
Location: wpg, mb
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Headrush wrote: | I don't see any chance of me changing from Gentoo anytime soon.
I don't quite understand some of these complaints about Gentoo.
People compile about messing up their productions systems, yet why are they constantly tinkering and doing daily syncs?
(I don't buy the I need an ~arch ebuild, which starts this dependency chain problem for a "standard" setup that most binary distros are running.) |
So basically, you're not answering the question of this topic. Just trolling around ?
I'm sorry, I don't run a ~arch system, but in order to access some software like MythTV, or Audacity, I used to have to declare ~arch for some packages, and their dependancies. Is it currently still needed ? I don't know, because I'm so worried about breaking my current working system, that I don't want to remove the ~arch for those packages... Yet, I sync daily to know what's new or what needs to be updated since the newsletter is always late to say what is a security update or not. When I receive the 30 octnewsletter on Nov 3, I think there is a problem, whatever good intent i |
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Headrush
Watchman
Joined: 06 Nov 2003
Posts: 5597
Location: Bizarro World
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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| pbardet wrote: | | So basically, you're not answering the question of this topic. Just trolling around ? |
Read the entire post, I said I am not changing but my choice of a binary distro is PCLinuxOS! 
Troll my ass. I waste way too much time helping people on this forum.  |
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pbardet
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 11 Dec 2003
Posts: 143
Location: wpg, mb
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Headrush wrote: | | pbardet, I understand what you are saying, but wasn't this a "unique" time in Linux's evolution with major changes to things like gcc-4, xorg-7, etc, that caused more problems than normally would happen with less frequent updates? |
Nope, the xorg 7 actually really went well, since I waited for the documentation to be written.
I'm talking about the Xorg mess that happened last week. I can send you my daily emerge reports that will show you what happened. It's now been a few weeks where more and more problems need to be fixed manually b[/list][/i][/code]ecause someone rushed an update. |
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Earthwings
Bodhisattva
Joined: 14 Apr 2003
Posts: 7753
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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Please keep the tone nice and friendly. Thanks.
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Headrush
Watchman
Joined: 06 Nov 2003
Posts: 5597
Location: Bizarro World
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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| pbardet wrote: | | I'm talking about the Xorg mess that happened last week. I can send you my daily emerge reports that will show you what happened. It's now been a few weeks where more and more problems need to be fixed manually b[/list][/i][/code]ecause someone rushed an update. |
Hmm, guess I missed that one on my three machines, and I didn't noticed any "remarkable" threads about a major xorg problem.
(Easy to miss threads with so many new ones all the time.)
| Earthwings wrote: | | Please keep the tone nice and friendly. Thanks. |
I think it came across worse sounding than it meant to be. Nothing personal between us canucks. |
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anello
Guru
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 557
Location: EU -> DE -> Stuttgart
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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I just gave fc6 a try and I think its pretty good. I'm going to make it my main desktop/laptop OS. Only annoying thing is that you have to add livna to be able to install most usful packages and of course you get packages installed per default that you don't really need. Its still pretty fast though and works out of the box with cutting edge packages.
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Q-collective
Advocate
Joined: 22 Mar 2004
Posts: 2071
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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| If Gentoo is no longer an option, I would try out SourceMage, FreeBSD or Arch. |
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geniux
Veteran
Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 1400
Location: /home
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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I've kept Gentoo as my only OS since my first install and I'm still as satisfied as then, so I'll never leave Gentoo. But if it all of a sudden disappeared into /dev/null I'd probably go *BSD
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Gentoo - BeyondSources 2.6.19-20 |
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sonicbhoc
Veteran
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1805
Location: In front of the computer screen
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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Gentoo is my first choice, I've only had one real problem (CUPS hates me <_< ) that I can't fix.
From Gentoo would be PCLinuxOS. Fast, mostly stable, easy to use, fancy GUI (although I can do without it), and it's my favorite binary distro.
Next would be OpenSUSE. I haven't heard much about them lately, and I'd consider checking them out again.
After that I'd like to see what using a *BSD is like. Never tried the BSD kernel before.
Arch Linux and Debian Linux I've heard about, but don't know enough about.
I don't like Ubuntu, because I'm a KDE guy and their KDE interface looks horrible to me. Also, the distro ran incredibly slow on my IBM T21 when I tried it one or two years ago, but it's probably changed since then. I heard that Ubuntu's installation method isn't perfect yet either. But whatever.
I think I'll be using Gentoo for some time. I don't see any reason to switch, aside from CUPS, which is a real bummer. But I'll get it fixed eventually. |
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phatscum
n00b
Joined: 20 Mar 2006
Posts: 34
Location: Down the sewers
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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When Gentoo dies I'll probably move over to the forked version someone eventually will create.
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rambam
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 16 Oct 2004
Posts: 104
Location: /dev/null
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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| pbardet wrote: | Unfortunately, since the main guy left the boat, I've seen a lot of changes, and not for the good of gentoo. Coincidence, or too much success ? I dont know. I don't even know what is a better choice.
I just know that when I upgrade my system, I spend way too much time looking for answers to issues encountered during the upgrade than using the system. |
Precisely my point.
Daniel had ideas about making Gentoo enterprise capable and made measurable progress towards it. With his departure, Gentoo appears to have degenerated back into a boy ricer system. If Daniel had stayed, Gentoo could have become another Ubuntu.Instead he left, worked unsuccessfully with microsoft, drifted through a number of jobs and left Gentoo to bit-rot.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Robbins_(Gentoo_Linux_founder) for a list of the jobs he has done since he left Gentoo. He seems to have done some minor work for IBM, Microsoft and a couple of small firms.
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Last edited by rambam on Sun Nov 05, 2006 12:41 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Gergan Penkov
Veteran
Joined: 17 Jul 2004
Posts: 1464
Location: das kleinste Kuhdorf Deutschlands :)
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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Hm I don't see the thing rotten in way.
It perfectly suits my needs, if someone needs bubuntu, he is free to use it.
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You gotta get him away, yeah
Hey little bitch!
Be glad you finally walked away or you may have not lived another day."
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Headrush
Watchman
Joined: 06 Nov 2003
Posts: 5597
Location: Bizarro World
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 12:06 am Post subject: |
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| rambam wrote: | Precisely my point.
Daniel had ideas about making Gentoo enterprise capable and made measurable progress towards it.
With his departure, Gentoo appears to have degenerated back into a boy ricer system.
If Daniel had stayed, Gentoo could have become another Ubuntu.Instead he left, worked unsuccessfully with microsoft, drifted through a number of jobs and left Gentoo to bit-rot. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Robbins_(Gentoo_Linux_founder) |
Is that your opinion or are you just quoting the wiki?
I'm curious as your join date is after Robbins already left and statements like that can hardly be validated either way.
Many things have greatly improved in Gentoo since I joined in 2003 but reading the forums you would never think so.  |
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morfic
Retired Dev
Joined: 28 Jul 2004
Posts: 31
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 12:27 am Post subject: |
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| Headrush wrote: | | rambam wrote: | Precisely my point.
Daniel had ideas about making Gentoo enterprise capable and made measurable progress towards it.
With his departure, Gentoo appears to have degenerated back into a boy ricer system.
If Daniel had stayed, Gentoo could have become another Ubuntu.Instead he left, worked unsuccessfully with microsoft, drifted through a number of jobs and left Gentoo to bit-rot. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Robbins_(Gentoo_Linux_founder) |
Is that your opinion or are you just quoting the wiki?
I'm curious as your join date is after Robbins already left and statements like that can hardly be validated either way.
Many things have greatly improved in Gentoo since I joined in 2003 but reading the forums you would never think so. |
What does my Forum Join date tell you about when i started using gentoo or when i became a developer? nothing (i love to see that argument once in a while, gives me a smile)
Everyone: Thanks for the replies thus far, it is interesting to see what people say they think ails Gentoo (I like rambam's comment best so far)
Gentoo forks certainly sound interesting, and if they happen i sure hope this is long before "gentoo is dead" (not sure why people think of gentoo's death in this thread so much, if anything, gentoo may lose ground (if you use user satisfaction as the determining factor))
I hope there will be many more replies to this thread, maybe it gives gentoo developers some ideas what their users miss/want (and if not them, then maybe the forkers)
Thanks,
Daniel |
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pteppic
l33t
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
Posts: 781
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 1:01 am Post subject: |
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| Q-collective wrote: | | If Gentoo is no longer an option, I would try out SourceMage, FreeBSD or Arch. |
I think I'd goto SourceMage or Arch if I had to, but I reckon I could survive 8-10 months without updates first.
The convenience of source based (that's not a typo) makes me want to lean in that direction again. I even consider optimization a side effect rather than a benefit, albeit a good one, mostly. |
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Headrush
Watchman
Joined: 06 Nov 2003
Posts: 5597
Location: Bizarro World
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 1:27 am Post subject: |
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| morfic wrote: | | What does my Forum Join date tell you about when i started using gentoo or when i became a developer? nothing (i love to see that argument once in a while, gives me a smile) |
Wasn't talking about you Daniel, was talking about rambam.
(Obviously join date alone isn't everything, but give me some credit, I read his posts also, didn't just go on join date to determine Gentoo skill level.) |
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morfic
Retired Dev
Joined: 28 Jul 2004
Posts: 31
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 1:44 am Post subject: |
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| Headrush wrote: | | morfic wrote: | | What does my Forum Join date tell you about when i started using gentoo or when i became a developer? nothing (i love to see that argument once in a while, gives me a smile) |
Wasn't talking about you Daniel, was talking about rambam.
(Obviously join date alone isn't everything, but give me some credit, I read his posts also, didn't just go on join date to determine Gentoo skill level.) |
I know you meant him, which is why i left your quote in, i just used my "late" join date as an example, no offense |
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Donman
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Posts: 117
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 4:26 am Post subject: |
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| I have no reason currently to switch from Gentoo, I have never had frustrating problems with it. Maybe because I am a patient person. But if I was to switch, I would probably go to Linux From Scratch. That is the only other 'distribution' that lets you learn so much, IMHO. Secondly would be Fedora Core, then probably Debian, one of the *BSD's, then Solaris. |
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vipernicus
Veteran
Joined: 17 Jan 2005
Posts: 1462
Location: Your College IT Dept.
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