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pappy_mcfae
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 Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:02 pm Post subject: Getting Ardour running properly. |
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I have finally gotten Ardour to install (used version 2.2). I can even make jack work under KDE...no small task. However, when I import a multitrack Cool Edit Pro project (four *.WAV files, 16bit, 44.1kHz) the sound skips, jitters, and generally offends the eardrum. The skipping gets worse the higher the waveforms. I had this problem when using it under Slackware. I'd really like to prove to myself once and for all whether Ardour can be made to fulfill my sound editing needs.
I have read of those who have made it work. I would like to hear from those people specifically. I'm capable of doing what it takes to make it work. I just need direction.
Please help. I'd like to start a new recording project, and do it with Gentoo.
Blessed be!
Pappy
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gimpel
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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- What is your sound device?
- How is your jackd configured (latency etc)?
- What kernel are you using?
- Do you have jack-audio-connection-kit compiled with USE="jack-tmpfs"? (That's for now the most important thing to check)
Worth reading: http://proaudio.tuxfamily.org/wiki/index.php?title=DAW_Digital_Audio_Workstation
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pappy_mcfae
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| Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 4:51 am Post subject: |
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| gimpel wrote: | | - What is your sound device? |
On this particular machine, it's a Intel HDA. On my other laptop, it's an AC97. On my server, it's an ice1712 (M-Audio 4 analog, two digital in/out).
| Quote: | | - How is your jackd configured (latency etc)? |
Good question, which I can't answer as I haven't configured jack, nor did I know such was possible.
| Quote: | | - What kernel are you using? |
This machine, and my other laptop: 2.6.22.19 and 2.6.22-gentoo-r10. The PII 450, 2.6.24.3 and 2.6.24-gentoo-r3.
| Quote: | | - Do you have jack-audio-connection-kit compiled with USE="jack-tmpfs"? (That's for now the most important thing to check) |
No. I'm assuming that's a necessity, right? M'kay. Well, I'm waiting right now as all my systems are chewing on the rather LARGE diet of upgrades that were introduced to the portage tree some time today. Once that's done, I'll check on jack.
Thanks, so far. Don't go too far away. I'm sure I'll have more questions.
Blessed be!
Pappy
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gimpel
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| Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:31 am Post subject: |
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| pappy_mcfae wrote: | | gimpel wrote: | | - What is your sound device? |
On this particular machine, it's a Intel HDA. On my other laptop, it's an AC97. On my server, it's an ice1712 (M-Audio 4 analog, two digital in/out). |
See here: http://proaudio.tuxfamily.org/wiki/index.php?title=FAQ#Intel_HDA_and_lots_of_xruns.3F
| Quote: | | Quote: | | - How is your jackd configured (latency etc)? |
Good question, which I can't answer as I haven't configured jack, nor did I know such was possible. |
To configure jack, you should install qjackctl. That makes life with jackd a lot easier.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | - What kernel are you using? |
This machine, and my other laptop: 2.6.22.19 and 2.6.22-gentoo-r10. The PII 450, 2.6.24.3 and 2.6.24-gentoo-r3. |
You should run it with PREEMPT enabled. That's low-latency desktop in processor type and features. I would put the m-audio card in the other box. A PII 450 is not really usable for DAW work.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | - Do you have jack-audio-connection-kit compiled with USE="jack-tmpfs"? (That's for now the most important thing to check) |
No. I'm assuming that's a necessity, right? M'kay. Well, I'm waiting right now as all my systems are chewing on the rather LARGE diet of upgrades that were introduced to the portage tree some time today. Once that's done, I'll check on jack. |
That's indeed essential, as otherwhise jackd will cache on the disk instead of RAM, and that's sloooow.
Hope that gets you a step further 
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pappy_mcfae
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| Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, I'll check that when I start playing with Ardour later on today. | Quote: | | To configure jack, you should install qjackctl. That makes life with jackd a lot easier. |
Done. | Quote: | | You should run it with PREEMPT enabled. That's low-latency desktop in processor type and features. I would put the m-audio card in the other box. A PII 450 is not really usable for DAW work. |
My kernel is fully preemptible, however, it is not set up for real time preemptability. I noticed there is a need for a patch to make that happen. I can do that as well. | Quote: | | - Do you have jack-audio-connection-kit compiled with USE="jack-tmpfs"? (That's for now the most important thing to check) |
Yes, I reemerged jack with the jack-tmpfs USE flag.
Observationally speaking, by tweaking jack a bit, I have come closer to acceptable listening. HOWEVER, I remain unimpressed, at least so far.
And as far as the PII450, I recorded, edited, effected, mixed, and mastered four different CD projects using only Cool Edit Pro, pretty much right out of the box on that machine. The only change I added was to add Waves plugins (a birthday present from an X), and the required Waves dongle. While it's true that when I got to mixing twenty-five different tracks in "real time", CEP would stutter, with only four tracks there was NEVER audible skipping. On the other hand, I am expecting a nice windfall, so the PII is very close to breathing it's last breath. That might help the situation.
What tweaks do you give to your system to make it work? How long did it take you to squash the bugs before the program became useful?
Blessed be!
Pappy
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pappy_mcfae
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:17 am Post subject: |
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Update as of 3-27-08 @ 0000 0000:0000 0011 (I use the binary clock), this is where my arduous ardour adventure leaves me.
I set up a real-time preemptable kernel. It was a complete wash. The computer would boot, but the kernel preempted so well, ardour would shut jack down completely when it started! Es no bueno. Besides that, KDE crawled at a snail's pace. It was awful. That will get ditched before I lay me down to sleep tonight.
QjackCtl is the way to the cross. Unfortunately, there's a lot of trial and error getting things right. Also, I had to tell arts to let go of the hardware after five seconds of inactivity, so that I could get jack to start consistently. Changing the interface, input and output devices to hw:0 did the final trick. After that little tweak, it sounded like it sounded when I first finished recording the raw tracks, and effectifying them.
Now ardour can play my song without sounding like it's being chewed to pieces in the engine of a 747. I have gotten ardour to work well, which is a far site better than I did with Slackware. The real acid test comes in a few days. I'm going to set up to record a new improv piece using ardour. I'm interested to see what happens.
Now that the program works, I can start the fun stuff: seeing what this program can actually do. MMMMM
I thank you for your assistance in this matter. You put me on the right path, which is just what I asked you to do. In the words of Big Gay Al, "That's super!"
Blessed be!
Pappy
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gimpel
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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Good to hear you got it working!
True, the -rt kernel can be really evil on various systems, but you actually need it only when you need really low latency like 2ms.
In most of the cases a normal kernel with RLIMITS or realtime-lsm and PREEMPT enabled is a better chioce regarding stability.
As for artsd, well yes, both are sound servers, and both want to access the audio device exclusively. So it's one or the other.
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bunder
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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| gimpel wrote: | Good to hear you got it working!
True, the -rt kernel can be really evil on various systems, but you actually need it only when you need really low latency like 2ms.
In most of the cases a normal kernel with RLIMITS or realtime-lsm and PREEMPT enabled is a better chioce regarding stability.
As for artsd, well yes, both are sound servers, and both want to access the audio device exclusively. So it's one or the other. |
artsd can output to jack... compile it with the jack use flag and change the dropdown from alsa to jack.
cheers
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pappy_mcfae
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| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 6:53 am Post subject: |
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I know that jack can interface with many, if not all of the audio apps that exist. The thing is, I remain skeptical about jack. I'm going to have to get a lot more comfortable with jack before I commit all my audio applications to it.
But the important thing is I got it working. I am sure the more I play with the program, the more I will understand it, and perhaps may become willing to let jack control all my audio. For now, I'm just happy that I got ardour to a place where it is minimally functional. It's a first.
I will give Gentoo this, it's a lot easier to deal with jack under Gentoo than it was under Slackware. I couldn't even find a slackbuild for jack (or ardour, for that matter) that was worth a damn. With Gentoo, it's all integrated and functional. That more than makes up for getting 115 upgrades in one single day. 
Blessed be!
Pappy
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FishB8
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| Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 3:05 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I set up a real-time preemptable kernel. It was a complete wash. The computer would boot, but the kernel preempted so well, ardour would shut jack down completely when it started! Es no bueno. Besides that, KDE crawled at a snail's pace. It was awful. That will get ditched before I lay me down to sleep tonight. |
That sounds really odd. I've never had any such problems with the patchset. It's made by Ingo Molar who is one of the main kernel devs, and he gives this patchset a lot of TLC. It sounds like a botched kernel config or a kernel patchset version mismatch.
| Quote: | | Also, I had to tell arts to let go of the hardware after five seconds of inactivity, so that I could get jack to start consistently. |
Good Lord. Chuck that piece of crap. KDE abandoned arts a long time ago. It is horribly broken and a pain in the ass. KDE will build just fine, and work much better, using ALSA directly. Set "-arts" as a use flag in your make.conf file.
| Quote: | | The thing is, I remain skeptical about jack. I'm going to have to get a lot more comfortable with jack before I commit all my audio applications to it. |
It's awsome. You'll love it after you learn of the complex routing you can do with it. The wonderful thing is that not only does it do interprocess audio routing, but timecode sync and transport control as well. If you want to get a little use out of the PII, you can set it up as a remote processing unit. You use something called netjack so that you can route audio between the computers using jack over ethernet. Then you can get some extra realtime processing (at least as much as a PII can handle) from a remote machine.
Would recommend looking into Jamin as the first prospect for an app for processing audio in ardour via jack.
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pappy_mcfae
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| Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:58 am Post subject: |
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| FishB8 wrote: | It's awsome. You'll love it after you learn of the complex routing you can do with it. The wonderful thing is that not only does it do interprocess audio routing, but timecode sync and transport control as well. If you want to get a little use out of the PII, you can set it up as a remote processing unit. You use something called netjack so that you can route audio between the computers using jack over ethernet. Then you can get some extra realtime processing (at least as much as a PII can handle) from a remote machine.
Would recommend looking into Jamin as the first prospect for an app for processing audio in ardour via jack. |
Thanks for replying. Today was a sad day. The PII is no more. 
It's guts were ripped out earlier today, and they were replaced with an Asus P5GC-MX/1333 motherboard, a Duo core 2.33 GHz, and two Gigs of ram.  
So far, the only sucky thing about the system is the integraed NIC isn't natively supported. AND, of course, the module driver that exists doesn't like either this machine, or Gentoo as a whole. Oh well, the old VIA Rhine NIC from the old PII fits, and works like a bloody charm!
Um, WOW! This thing can burn through gcc like it's not even there. I LIKE IT!
But I digress...
Now that I have a machine that's worthy of using for trials, and the machine that has the pro level M-Audio card installed, and they are the same machine, the fun really starts. Right now, I'm in the middle of finishing the emerge -eav world I began a few days ago. Then I'm going to move it to a huge partition all it's own. For a while, it will be untouched by SmallFlacid.
Eventually, I'm going to get a new drive for XP. I have to. My Waves plugins dongle doesn't work under Linux, and even if it did, I'd have to get the code from Waves and port them to Linux. Somehow, I don't see that happening.
The question I'd have is, can jack be started as a daemon at boot time? If so, it might be worth it to see how much better running everything though jack works. I ask because it seems that jack likes to take over after you start it as a command. Obviously, that wouldn't be conducive to doing much of anything else with your computer.
I can't wait to open this puppy up all the way and see what she can do in the world of audio engineering.
Blessed be!
Pappy
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FishB8
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| Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 3:25 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The question I'd have is, can jack be started as a daemon at boot time? If so, it might be worth it to see how much better running everything though jack works. I ask because it seems that jack likes to take over after you start it as a command. Obviously, that wouldn't be conducive to doing much of anything else with your computer. |
Wouldn't really recommend it. Jackd will only allow connections from the same uid as the one it was launched under.
Jack isn't really a generic sound server. It's only intended for pro-audio use. There are some people who try to get things like various media players and the like to use jack (and some media apps support that now) but it's pretty much wasted effort. There's really no point to it.
Generally if you're not doing proaudio work that requires jack, you just turn it off. When you are doing proaudio work, you usually don't want other programs playing back audio anyway.
You might be interested to know that you could set up your waves plugins on a windows machine and access them via netjack over ethernet from a linux machine. There is a program called jackdmp. It is a rewrite of jackd that is being developed in parallel with jackd. It's the "next generation" of jack and will very soon replace the current one. The interesting thing is that this newer version will compile for windows. So you can use it to set up a windows machine to provide remote access to waves plugins. (Never done it myself, but I've heard of others doing similar things.)
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pappy_mcfae
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| Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 4:56 am Post subject: |
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| FishB8 wrote: | | Wouldn't really recommend it. Jackd will only allow connections from the same uid as the one it was launched under. |
That wouldn't be a problem. I'm the only one that works with my machines, so there's no other user present besides root.
| Quote: | | Jack isn't really a generic sound server. It's only intended for pro-audio use. There are some people who try to get things like various media players and the like to use jack (and some media apps support that now) but it's pretty much wasted effort. There's really no point to it. |
I figured if I set it up as a USE flag, I could recompile everything with jack support, and I wouldn't have a problem with separate packages fighting for the control of the sound hardware. They'd all run through jack, so even arts wouldn't be a problem...well, beyond what some people say it is.
| Quote: | | Generally if you're not doing proaudio work that requires jack, you just turn it off. When you are doing proaudio work, you usually don't want other programs playing back audio anyway. |
True, but if I all the other sound programs through jack, then arts playing a sound when kde starts won't cause this machine to cough up a hairball or two.
Currently, I have it set up to autostart with kde. On the New Duo 2, it seems to work fine. On this machine, not so much. But I am still in the experimental stage.
| Quote: | | You might be interested to know that you could set up your waves plugins on a windows machine and access them via netjack over ethernet from a linux machine. There is a program called jackdmp. It is a rewrite of jackd that is being developed in parallel with jackd. It's the "next generation" of jack and will very soon replace the current one. The interesting thing is that this newer version will compile for windows. So you can use it to set up a windows machine to provide remote access to waves plugins. (Never done it myself, but I've heard of others doing similar things.) |
Really? |eyes fluttering| I can leave the dongle and plug-ins on the Toshiba Laptop and use them with ardour? Would it allow me to also use some of the plugins that come with Cool Edit Pro? That would be a serious win-win for me.
I thank you for your reply. I am definitely going to do some more experimentation...and it looks like I'm going to have to work the rust out of my fingers, too.
Blessed be!
Pappy
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pappy_mcfae
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| Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 5:05 am Post subject: |
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Oh yeah, I forgot something...
| Quote: | | Good Lord. Chuck that piece of crap. KDE abandoned arts a long time ago. It is horribly broken and a pain in the ass. KDE will build just fine, and work much better, using ALSA directly. Set "-arts" as a use flag in your make.conf file. |
Arts can be substituted by alsa? Really? Does it get rid of the lag that arts tends to grow, or is that ogg file fragmentation that does that? I think I might have to give that a shot. Since the Duo 2 is going to be the audio machine, I think I'll give it a whirl on that machine and see where it goes from there.
Once again, thanks for the tips.
Blessed be!
Pappy
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FishB8
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 1:08 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Arts can be substituted by alsa? Really? Does it get rid of the lag that arts tends to grow, or is that ogg file fragmentation that does that? I think I might have to give that a shot. |
Yes, and it gets rid of all kinds of problems. Personally, under the advanced player settings, I just set KDE to not make any noises at all with the "no audio output" option. I would rather have notifications via the system bell rather than having beeps and dings interrupt a recording session. If you want the little beeps and dings from the desktop manager though, you can always set it up to use something like ecasound to play the little noises. (It can play all kinds of formats and interface with jack) Any media players or similar programs that support arts usually support backends for other interfaces like alsa, so you can usually build them without arts support.
Seriously though, Arts hasn't been updated since 2001 (!) and was officially abandoned in 2004: http://www.arts-project.org/doc/arts-maintenance.html
The KDE 4.0 is building new, much more lightweight system called Phonon, which is basically little more than a thin abstraction layer.
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bunder
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:59 am Post subject: |
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i gotta ask this: how did you get ardour to start? https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=194437
i had to downgrade it before it would start without segfaulting... 
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pappy_mcfae
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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Frankly, I have yet to get 2.3.1 to work. I masked it out, and I use 2.2 instead. I was going to try with it later on with this machine. It survived the perils of being upgraded to 64 bit; no small task! The circular dependencies were absolute murder!
I had to emerge components of xorg until I found the package that was causing all the grief (glib). Once that was done, I emerged xfce, and here I am. I think perhaps I should have used slightly more conservative USE flags. However, I have to confess figuring out the circular dependencies was a blast; sort of the digital version of untying a knot. I'm really GOOD at untying knots!
As soon as I get KDE emerged, then I'm going to see about getting ardour 2.3.1 to work. For now, there is one tip I can offer that seems to have really made a difference with ardour. Emerge qjackctl, and set it to run in the system tray. That way, it's started whenever you start your X session. Ardour may or may not whine about jack not running, but the projects will open because jack is up enough to bring you to the editor window.
EDIT: I just looked at the bug you posted, and I haven't had that problem The problem I have is that ardour says something about the memory being locked...then it usually opens. 2.3.1 would give the same warning, then die. Once again, that seems to have diminished greatly since I began autostarting jack under KDE. I have never segfaulted it.
Blessed be!
Pappy
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bunder
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The problem I have is that ardour says something about the memory being locked |
ulimit -l unlimited (or edit /etc/security/limits.conf)
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FishB8
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 12:10 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The problem I have is that ardour says something about the memory being locked...then it usually opens |
That obnoxious warning is intended to make people update their PAM profile so that Ardour and other audio process are not swapped out of memory into the swap drive. That kinda tends to bring your system to a grinding halt when in the middle of a recording session. http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/desktop/sound/realtime.xml
| Quote: | | i gotta ask this: how did you get ardour to start? |
That's due to using the syslibs option. Seriously, don't use that. Even if you can get it to build and run without totally segfaulting, don't use it. The static libraries in their package are very heavily modified to deal with bugs and issues like low latency or custom features. Even if you get it to compile and run, you will have crappy performance and inhibited functionality. I don't know why this build option even exists, there is really no point.
Also, FYI, version 2.4 was just released. (Doubt it's in portage yet)
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pappy_mcfae
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 8:10 am Post subject: |
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Amazingly enough, ardour 2.3.1 is really not a problem for me. I just finished setting up this machine for 64 bit operation. Either the 64 bit setup makes ardour happy, or the 2 Gigs of RAM. I'm thinking it's the RAM.
Initially, I figured maybe I got lucky. I closed the project, then reopened it a dozen times. At no time did I get any kind of error whatsoever, either from ardour or jack. I can't tell you how happy I am that happens.
Well, it seems that Linux does indeed have a viable pro audio package that is somewhat workable. Mind you, I have yet to try it out doing actual recording. I've been busy cleaning up update overload problems, as well as setting up the new machine. However, I am planning on doing some testing with the recording features of ardour. Therein lies the real acid test.
Blessed be!
Pappy
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pappy_mcfae
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| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 6:54 am Post subject: |
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Ardour 2.4 and 2.4.1 have hit portage. I installed 2.4.1 earlier on my Core2, and I just finished up on this laptop as well. Right off the bat, they put volume control sliders in the main editor window, so now you can control volume without the need for having the mixer up as well.
I just wanted to make sure that everyone who has added to this thread got the message.
Blessed be!
Pappy
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josephgrey
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| Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 6:00 pm Post subject: segfault |
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I just got the newest version of ardour running (2.4.1). It kept segfaulting giving me an error with glibmm. After digging through the problem was the syslib = 1 option given to scons in the ebuild (as mentioned by FishB8.)
I'm thinking it is probably best to disable this becuase on the Building ardour from source page it says:
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SYSLIBS
USE AT YOUR OWN RISK: CANCELS ALL SUPPORT FROM ARDOUR AUTHORS. Use existing system versions of various libraries instead of internal ones (yes|no) |
I checked out the discussion on this bug: https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=194437. For reasons I can't understand, the ebuild developers would rather go against the ardour developers' suggestion to compile against the included static libraries in favor of using the dynamic syslibs, and leave an ebuild that builds an executable that segfaults in portage. Yeah, I am using ~x86, but come on. I mean come on. And if the ardour developers are in fact modifying libraries to suit their needs, they shouldn't even be providing the option to compile against anything else.
So anyway, to fix it up, I modified the ebuild. I changed the line that says "syslibs=1" to "syslibs=0" and did a | Code: | | ebuild ardour2.4.1.ebuild digest |
followed by
and no more segfaulting.
From the that buidling ardour from source page, it also looks like there are a few options that aren't fed to scons that could be. I don't know what they default to when not specified, but they include support for vst and lv2 plugins. |
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New User
n00b
Joined: 12 Sep 2005
Posts: 57
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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| I also did the same thing that Joesphgrey did and got it working. It was seg faulting before before it could even bring up the main window. |
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pappy_mcfae
Watchman
Joined: 27 Dec 2007
Posts: 5999
Location: Pomona, California.
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:45 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, and now that ardour-2.5 has hit portage, I'm sure that ebuild will have to be modified as well. From the looks of it, it will be worth the effort. There are a few nifty upgrades to the main user interface. Now that I've tested it out, I think I'll fix my ebuild so I have stability.
Blessed be!
Pappy
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Multimedia
