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Subversive Asset
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 Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 4:18 am Post subject: Is there any way to install gentoo wirelessly [SOLVED] |
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As in, not using the livecd and doing a networkless installation, but by using a wireless internet connection.
It just seems to me that gentoo is a very wireless-unfriendly distro...I've tried installing by the livecd, but then when I get into the system, i can't get only because it doesn't have ndiswrapper (I have the windows drivers so that's not a problem, but the cd doesn't offer something like ndiswrapper; I'd think this would be a no-brainer...) And I couldn't just add an overlay with ndiswrapper in because several of ndiswrapper's dependencies (including kernel sources) are also not on the livecd.
I have very limited access to a wired ethernet connection (it's in another room, and then I have to upset the computer configuration that's already set up over there), so I can't just spend hours there.
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jseymour
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Subversive Asset
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| Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 5:25 am Post subject: |
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I saw the idea about using Knoppix's ndiswrapper--but for whatever reason the knoppix livecd doesn't completely cooperate on my system.
what I'm wondering is why can't the liveCD or minimal install CD for GENTOO support ndiswrapper so that these patched together workarounds don't have to be necessary? It seems kinda silly (and brings more room for error, in my case) to have to go to Knoppix and then to gentoo...and it's really not worth it.
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madisonicus
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| Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 5:44 am Post subject: Re: Is there any way to install gentoo wirelessly |
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| Subversive Asset wrote: | As in, not using the livecd and doing a networkless installation, but by using a wireless internet connection.
It just seems to me that gentoo is a very wireless-unfriendly distro...I've tried installing by the livecd, but then when I get into the system, i can't get only because it doesn't have ndiswrapper (I have the windows drivers so that's not a problem, but the cd doesn't offer something like ndiswrapper; I'd think this would be a no-brainer...) And I couldn't just add an overlay with ndiswrapper in because several of ndiswrapper's dependencies (including kernel sources) are also not on the livecd.
I have very limited access to a wired ethernet connection (it's in another room, and then I have to upset the computer configuration that's already set up over there), so I can't just spend hours there. |
So, do a networkless installation (it's one of the options) to get Gentoo running, then connect briefly to the ethernet connection and make whatever wireless drivers you need for your wifi card your first emerge. Unplug from the ethernet and use the wireless connection to complete the installation.
(However, I don't recommend using the installer since it is not designed for use by folks who do not understand the manual installation process thoroughly. Doing it by hand is the best, safest way. So here's the official instructions for doing that.)
Also, there's nothing whatsoever wrong or kludgey with using one Linux distro to install another. The chrooting step is part of every installation. It's just that in Gentoo you see it. There's even official documentation for doing an installation using Knoppix.
Rereading your post, though, I'm not sure I understand the problem you're experiencing. Unlike many (most?) distributions out there, Gentoo is always a custom installation. You get to pick exactly what you want installed. The basic installation is pretty much just a compiler, some necessary libraries, and a kernel. Everything after that you get to pick. So, if the installer didn't install a package, then start emerging. Or have I misunderstood something?
Finally, are you sure ndiswrappers is what you want? There may be better Linux support for your wireless card that you think... or maybe worse. It's very hit or miss with wireless stuff due to regulations and proprietary stuff.
HTH,
m
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Subversive Asset
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| Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 5:58 am Post subject: |
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Why can't it be possible to get gentoo working completely without a wired connection AT ALL? Because I could probably install from the liveCD, then emerge ndiswrapper and its deps while connected with ethernet, and then be on my merry way.
But that, in my opinion, is just whitewashing a dirty fence.
I can do anything after I have my wireless installation (I've done a networked installation with the minimal install disk before, so I know that it's all about customizing and all of that, but one thing I got from that it seems more like a pain to just sit and watch things compile over days) but gentoo doesn't even give me that (and the bcm43xx doesn't work flawlessly, so that's why I need ndiswrapper instead).
I've dealt with ndiswrapper for a long time; I can use that. the makeshift drivers (when they even decide to pop up at all) are just a hassle. But if gentoo had ndiswrapper, I could do that, and it'd be flawless...because, after all, those ARE the drivers the device was made for.
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Subversive Asset
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| Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 7:56 am Post subject: |
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Is the reason gentoo does not have ndiswrapper on the liveCD because ndiswrapper isn't 'free'?
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cyrillic
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 12:02 am Post subject: |
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| Subversive Asset wrote: | | Why can't it be possible to get gentoo working completely without a wired connection AT ALL? |
It is possible, you just need to do the installation from a more wireless-friendly LiveCD than what Gentoo offers.
I am a big fan of installing Gentoo with a Knoppix CD, but if that doesn't work for you, then try a different LiveCD like Ubuntu (as far as I know, both have ndiswrapper). |
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sonicbhoc
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 12:25 am Post subject: |
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I generally use PCLinuxOS for this task, but there are a lot of other distros that you could use to, how you say, "kick-start" a Gentoo install. Damn Small Linux is another good one.
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Subversive Asset
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 3:27 am Post subject: |
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Ok, knoppix didn't work when I tried it and Ubuntu's LiveCD disagrees with my computer (a lot of things do that though) so I guess i'll try to use DSL or PCLinuxOS.
However, is it likely that later versions of the livecd will have ndiswrapper?
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madisonicus
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:30 am Post subject: |
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You can always download the ndiswrapper source and copy it to your networkless-installed comp via sneakernet.
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Subversive Asset
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 1:07 am Post subject: |
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so, using a tar.gz of ndiswrapper (as opposed to an overlay ebuild) wouldn't need all of the nasty dependencies?
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madisonicus
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 2:35 am Post subject: |
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| Subversive Asset wrote: | | so, using a tar.gz of ndiswrapper (as opposed to an overlay ebuild) wouldn't need all of the nasty dependencies? |
What nasty dependencies? The reason ndiswrapper isn't included on the liveCD, I imagine, is because it requires you to copy over a non-free Windows driver in order to make it work.
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Subversive Asset
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 8:00 am Post subject: |
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However, 1)ndiswrapper doesn't include these windows drivers, 2)ndiswrapper itself is free software (GPL2?), and 3)the secondbest alternative (bcm43xx module) isn't good enough. The Windows drivers work flawlessly as long as ndiswrapper is allowed to work.
If other distros can include ndiswrapper as part of a livecd, I don't see why gentoo can't--unless all of these other distros are not 'free'.
Dependencies? Kernel sources (not installed by the livecd--don't know how to get it to do that). yacc--didn't even see it need another compiler >_<.
I had already accounted for ndiswrapper's 'standard' deps (pciutils, sed, wireless-tools), but when I saw that the system needed more, I don't know...I think that's kinda ridiculous for something that's already supposed to be 'live'.
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madisonicus
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Subversive Asset wrote: | However, 1)ndiswrapper doesn't include these windows drivers, 2)ndiswrapper itself is free software (GPL2?), and 3)the secondbest alternative (bcm43xx module) isn't good enough. The Windows drivers work flawlessly as long as ndiswrapper is allowed to work.
If other distros can include ndiswrapper as part of a livecd, I don't see why gentoo can't--unless all of these other distros are not 'free'.
Dependencies? Kernel sources (not installed by the livecd--don't know how to get it to do that). yacc--didn't even see it need another compiler >_<.
I had already accounted for ndiswrapper's 'standard' deps (pciutils, sed, wireless-tools), but when I saw that the system needed more, I don't know...I think that's kinda ridiculous for something that's already supposed to be 'live'. |
Look, I'm not going to argue with you in nomini Gentoo LiveCD. I think it's an unfortunate project because new users have unreasonably large expectations of it, get very bent out of shape with it doesn't meet those expectations, and also fail to research Gentoo or their systems thoroughly before using it.
I and others have given you several options and some explanations. If you have a broadband internet connection, then I think it takes maybe 2-3 minutes to download gentoo-sources and the ndiswrapper sources with its dependencies. Especially since the kernel sources don't get compiled and ndiswrapper is only a few hundred kilobytes. I realize you may not want to disconnect your desktop from the internet (Could you buy another piece of ethernet cable to connect to your router?) for three days, but 3 minutes seems more than reasonable. If not, then we explained that you can fetch sources on another computer and burn them to a disk to transfer to another. That way you wouldn't even have to disconnect your desktop for a moment.
What are you using yacc for?
Finally, WRT to whether a LiveCD is free... If you find a LiveCD with nvidia drivers, opera browser, or other proprietary software, then no, it is not free: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_software.
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foxbat
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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whats wrong with using the bcm43xx module? It works great for me (i had to do a completely networkless install, no wire internet, nothing). I had to copy over wireless-tools via a usb thumbdrive. Agreed, ndiswrapper has many dependencies, but there are other options you can pursue to solve your problem.
In defense of the LiveCD, it really speeds up Gentoo deployments, but it's not a substitute for knowing what your doing and being able to 'get under the hood' and fix things manually.
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Subversive Asset
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 12:17 am Post subject: |
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| madisonicus wrote: | | Subversive Asset wrote: | However, 1)ndiswrapper doesn't include these windows drivers, 2)ndiswrapper itself is free software (GPL2?), and 3)the secondbest alternative (bcm43xx module) isn't good enough. The Windows drivers work flawlessly as long as ndiswrapper is allowed to work.
If other distros can include ndiswrapper as part of a livecd, I don't see why gentoo can't--unless all of these other distros are not 'free'.
Dependencies? Kernel sources (not installed by the livecd--don't know how to get it to do that). yacc--didn't even see it need another compiler >_<.
I had already accounted for ndiswrapper's 'standard' deps (pciutils, sed, wireless-tools), but when I saw that the system needed more, I don't know...I think that's kinda ridiculous for something that's already supposed to be 'live'. |
Look, I'm not going to argue with you in nomini Gentoo LiveCD. I think it's an unfortunate project because new users have unreasonably large expectations of it, get very bent out of shape with it doesn't meet those expectations, and also fail to research Gentoo or their systems thoroughly before using it.
I and others have given you several options and some explanations. If you have a broadband internet connection, then I think it takes maybe 2-3 minutes to download gentoo-sources and the ndiswrapper sources with its dependencies. Especially since the kernel sources don't get compiled and ndiswrapper is only a few hundred kilobytes. I realize you may not want to disconnect your desktop from the internet (Could you buy another piece of ethernet cable to connect to your router?) for three days, but 3 minutes seems more than reasonable. If not, then we explained that you can fetch sources on another computer and burn them to a disk to transfer to another. That way you wouldn't even have to disconnect your desktop for a moment.
What are you using yacc for?
Finally, WRT to whether a LiveCD is free... If you find a LiveCD with nvidia drivers, opera browser, or other proprietary software, then no, it is not free: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_software. |
I am simply suggesting that, in the future, it would be helpful if ndiswrapper were included with the liveCD--then perhaps, it wouldn't be so 'unfortunate'.
I mean...because if I am to go with what I have researched of Gentoo and my system, then the only other conclusion is that at this time, both are not compatible in a timely fashion--I either have to go through in roundabout ways to install the OS in spite of my system or, as others have suggested, I should just buy 'linux-compatible' hardware. And if that is the case, then surely it all is an 'unfortunate project.'
Here's what I can try though; I actually have now been asking for quite some time if I could use a tar.gz from ndiswrapper's site and avoid dependencies (trying to do some EFFECTIVE research), and instead, I don't receive any kind of answer on that subject. I don't know how I'm supposed to take that really. Who knows, maybe I should go with the other options and explanations--but I should think that if I already have an idea that I could get some feedback on that.
What am I using yacc for? To my knowledge, *I* am not using yacc. I don't tell the system to use it; it just tells me that it is a dependency that I must not have gotten beforehand.
I'm not saying that gentoo's LiveCd has to have nvidia drivers, opera browser, or other proprietary software, but the fact is that ndiswrapper is not proprietary software.
| foxbat wrote: |
whats wrong with using the bcm43xx module? It works great for me (i had to do a completely networkless install, no wire internet, nothing). I had to copy over wireless-tools via a usb thumbdrive. Agreed, ndiswrapper has many dependencies, but there are other options you can pursue to solve your problem.
In defense of the LiveCD, it really speeds up Gentoo deployments, but it's not a substitute for knowing what your doing and being able to 'get under the hood' and fix things manually. |
There'd be nothing wrong with using the bcm43xx module if it worked great for me--but one thing I do know is that it does not. I've read FAQs that point out that it isn't flawless (specifically with my bcm4318)--and then it suggests to use ndiswrapper instead! So much for research, I suppose.
Here's my thing; getting under the hood to fix things manually would be completely fine with me if things made sense at any point--I mean, if I could read a solution and do that and it would work. But instead, I have to go to IRC, FAQs, forums, other people, and they all have their own solutions, but there is nothing that works all the time. Perhaps it is my laptop that's at fault (in which case, I need to know so I can stop wasting my time) but when there is no science to problemsolving, I don't see much point to it.
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madisonicus
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 12:50 am Post subject: |
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| Subversive Asset wrote: | | Here's what I can try though; I actually have now been asking for quite some time if I could use a tar.gz from ndiswrapper's site and avoid dependencies (trying to do some EFFECTIVE research), and instead, I don't receive any kind of answer on that subject. I don't know how I'm supposed to take that really. Who knows, maybe I should go with the other options and explanations--but I should think that if I already have an idea that I could get some feedback on that. |
Yes, that was my suggestion as I recall. To spell it out, | Code: | | # emerge -pv ndiswrapper |
will tell you exactly what the dependencies are and what you need to download. Go get the sourcecode that the ebuild wants. Copy it to your new machine. Move the sourcecode tarballs into your /usr/portage/distfiles directory. Emerge.
| Subversive Asset wrote: | | There'd be nothing wrong with using the bcm43xx module if it worked great for me--but one thing I do know is that it does not. I've read FAQs that point out that it isn't flawless (specifically with my bcm4318)--and then it suggests to use ndiswrapper instead! So much for research, I suppose. |
What errors does it give you? What happens when you try it? Maybe we can help you get it working. But you'll have to tell us exactly what's happening.
| Subversive Asset wrote: | | Here's my thing; getting under the hood to fix things manually would be completely fine with me if things made sense at any point--I mean, if I could read a solution and do that and it would work. But instead, I have to go to IRC, FAQs, forums, other people, and they all have their own solutions, but there is nothing that works all the time. Perhaps it is my laptop that's at fault (in which case, I need to know so I can stop wasting my time) but when there is no science to problemsolving, I don't see much point to it. |
There is indeed a science to problem solving. But you need to tell us exactly what's going on. In any case, you're not going to get far by complaining about unnamed dependencies, telling us that the kernel module doesn't work without giving us error messages, and getting all dramatic about why the Gentoo LiveCD doesn't meet your expectations.
In short, if you want more specific solutions, you need to offer up more specific information.
Finally, reading through the ebuild I can see that there are very few dependencies for ndiswrapper: | Code: | sys-apps/pciutils
net-wireless/wireless-tools
virtual/libc |
Gentoo wont work without virtual/libc, so I know that was installed by the GUI installer (which no one that I know of recommends). The tarball in my /usr/portage/distfiles says pciutils is 1.1M of code. And, wireless-tools requires 269k of code. So far as I know those things and a working kernel should be all you need to emerge ndiswrapper. However, if portage wants more, you can go grab it and sneakernet it to your laptop.
But, as I said, if you run into problems then you need to post logs and error messages otherwise there's nothing we can do to help.
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Subversive Asset
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 2:34 am Post subject: |
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| madisonicus wrote: | | Subversive Asset wrote: | | Here's what I can try though; I actually have now been asking for quite some time if I could use a tar.gz from ndiswrapper's site and avoid dependencies (trying to do some EFFECTIVE research), and instead, I don't receive any kind of answer on that subject. I don't know how I'm supposed to take that really. Who knows, maybe I should go with the other options and explanations--but I should think that if I already have an idea that I could get some feedback on that. |
Yes, that was my suggestion as I recall. |
If that's the case, why not just use the tar.gz?
| madisonicus wrote: | To spell it out, | Code: | | # emerge -pv ndiswrapper |
will tell you exactly what the dependencies are and what you need to download. Go get the sourcecode that the ebuild wants. Copy it to your new machine. Move the sourcecode tarballs into your /usr/portage/distfiles directory. Emerge. |
I'll get back to that method after tar.gz and hope it doesn't give me yet another, different dep request.
| madsonicus wrote: |
| Subversive Asset wrote: | | There'd be nothing wrong with using the bcm43xx module if it worked great for me--but one thing I do know is that it does not. I've read FAQs that point out that it isn't flawless (specifically with my bcm4318)--and then it suggests to use ndiswrapper instead! So much for research, I suppose. |
What errors does it give you? What happens when you try it? Maybe we can help you get it working. But you'll have to tell us exactly what's happening. |
That's the problem; at least with the bcm43xx module, there were no errors (such as in dmesg) that specifically led me to believe it just wouldn't work. For all intents and purposes, it SHOULD have worked...it just...didn't.
| madsonicus wrote: |
| Subversive Asset wrote: | | Here's my thing; getting under the hood to fix things manually would be completely fine with me if things made sense at any point--I mean, if I could read a solution and do that and it would work. But instead, I have to go to IRC, FAQs, forums, other people, and they all have their own solutions, but there is nothing that works all the time. Perhaps it is my laptop that's at fault (in which case, I need to know so I can stop wasting my time) but when there is no science to problemsolving, I don't see much point to it. |
There is indeed a science to problem solving. But you need to tell us exactly what's going on. In any case, you're not going to get far by complaining about unnamed dependencies, telling us that the kernel module doesn't work without giving us error messages, and getting all dramatic about why the Gentoo LiveCD doesn't meet your expectations.
In short, if you want more specific solutions, you need to offer up more specific information. |
I can't offer specific information when I don't even know what is breaking all the time or how it's breaking--with several problems with gentoo (bcm43xx specifically), it seems that everything SHOULD work, but it just...doesn't. So I can't fix something that under all scenarios SHOULD be working but just doesn't--I just know that it doesn't work and that's the only thing I can repeat--it not working, yet showing that it should work...I mean...the blue 'on' light even turns on.
| madsonicus wrote: | Finally, reading through the ebuild I can see that there are very few dependencies for ndiswrapper: | Code: | sys-apps/pciutils
net-wireless/wireless-tools
virtual/libc |
Gentoo wont work without virtual/libc, so I know that was installed by the GUI installer (which no one that I know of recommends). The tarball in my /usr/portage/distfiles says pciutils is 1.1M of code. And, wireless-tools requires 269k of code. So far as I know those things and a working kernel should be all you need to emerge ndiswrapper. However, if portage wants more, you can go grab it and sneakernet it to your laptop.
But, as I said, if you run into problems then you need to post logs and error messages otherwise there's nothing we can do to help. |
I already had those deps, but then gentoo found more--that's what I don't understand--so if i go to sneakernet, hypothetically, maybe it would fix everything, but maybe it could pull more dependencies out of its hat. Right now, I just have to have a different way than this kind of trial and error that seems to be the senseless solution to Should-but-doesn'ts.
I mean...I know I'm being obstinate now, ok, ok, but this is now ideological almost: can you please tell the developers that be to at least CONSIDER adding ndiswrapper to the livecd...I mean...by itself, it's still completely libre, and at this time, other options SHOULD work, but sometimes simply don't. And there are still some chipsets that don't have good module support...but ndiswrapper can fix that.
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madisonicus
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 4:36 am Post subject: |
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| Subversive Asset wrote: | | madisonicus wrote: | | Subversive Asset wrote: | | Here's what I can try though; I actually have now been asking for quite some time if I could use a tar.gz from ndiswrapper's site and avoid dependencies (trying to do some EFFECTIVE research), and instead, I don't receive any kind of answer on that subject. I don't know how I'm supposed to take that really. Who knows, maybe I should go with the other options and explanations--but I should think that if I already have an idea that I could get some feedback on that. |
Yes, that was my suggestion as I recall. |
If that's the case, why not just use the tar.gz?
| madisonicus wrote: | To spell it out, | Code: | | # emerge -pv ndiswrapper |
will tell you exactly what the dependencies are and what you need to download. Go get the sourcecode that the ebuild wants. Copy it to your new machine. Move the sourcecode tarballs into your /usr/portage/distfiles directory. Emerge. |
I'll get back to that method after tar.gz and hope it doesn't give me yet another, different dep request. |
Ok, you know Gentoo is a source based distribution, right? All this "method" does is manually do what portage does normally via wget. Also, there isn't anything in Gentoo that I've encountered that I could call a "dep request," so I'm a little confused what you mean by that. Could you please post the message that you're getting that you're calling a "dep request" so that we're on the same page?
| Subversive Asset wrote: | That's the problem; at least with the bcm43xx module, there were no errors (such as in dmesg) that specifically led me to believe it just wouldn't work. For all intents and purposes, it SHOULD have worked...it just...didn't.
...
I can't offer specific information when I don't even know what is breaking all the time or how it's breaking--with several problems with gentoo (bcm43xx specifically), it seems that everything SHOULD work, but it just...doesn't. So I can't fix something that under all scenarios SHOULD be working but just doesn't--I just know that it doesn't work and that's the only thing I can repeat--it not working, yet showing that it should work...I mean...the blue 'on' light even turns on.
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Again, show us what dmesg, lspci, ifconfig -a, lsmod, etc, etc, show you. Describe the process you used to install them. Describe what exactly "wouldn't work" means? There are innumerable places where wireless might not work. Did the kernel compile? Did you use the Gentoo networking guide? Did iwlist scan show networks? Did the ath0/wifi0/eth1 interface not show up? Did you use wpa_supplicant?
| Subversive Asset wrote: | | I already had those deps, but then gentoo found more--that's what I don't understand--so if i go to sneakernet, hypothetically, maybe it would fix everything, but maybe it could pull more dependencies out of its hat. Right now, I just have to have a different way than this kind of trial and error that seems to be the senseless solution to Should-but-doesn'ts. |
Ok you really need to slow down and post exactly what you've been doing, because portage doesn't hide dependencies. None of this scenario sounds familiar to me.
| Subversive Asset wrote: | | I mean...I know I'm being obstinate now, ok, ok, but this is now ideological almost: can you please tell the developers that be to at least CONSIDER adding ndiswrapper to the livecd...I mean...by itself, it's still completely libre, and at this time, other options SHOULD work, but sometimes simply don't. And there are still some chipsets that don't have good module support...but ndiswrapper can fix that. |
As it says on several FAQ's, if you have problems with the installer, post them to Bugzilla.
So, we'd really like to help, but you really need to give us something to go on otherwise this has started to seem more like trolling than a request for help.
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Crooksey
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Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 239
Location: Vatican City
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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Get the Installer CD, and another CD with a portage snapshot, Stage3 and a Kernel with the ndiswrapper on, if you PC has two drives.
I think this would work, aslong as the ndiswrapper has no nasty dep's |
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Subversive Asset
n00b
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 40
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| Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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I instead used a Mandriva LiveCD with ndiswrapper to install it; it's an utterly unacceptable solution (and the system doesn't really work, but that's for another topic).
So I guess this is solved.
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Installing Gentoo
