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Bad Penguin
Guru
Joined: 18 Aug 2004
Posts: 507
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 Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Paapaa wrote: | | Bad Penguin wrote: | | Well, considering the fact that nobody can even look at a draft, it is a bit difficult for me to say anything about what PMS really exists for. |
You could ask Stephen Bennet to see the PMS draft. But I'm sure you'll see it eventually and you'll be able to comment on it. This is what he wrote:
| Quote: | Gentoo, and any other parties, will have ample opportunity for input
long before it gets finalised. Right now, though, soliciting comments
from all and sundry will be more distracting than productive. We know
it's currently incomplete and full of holes; we don't need to be told
it. |
You know the drill: it'll be ready when it's ready... |
And we can all see how successful developing it "behind closed doors" has been at avoiding distraction and confusion. |
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luqas
Guru
Joined: 02 Jan 2004
Posts: 588
Location: /US/Texas/Beaumont
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Bad Penguin wrote: | | And we can all see how successful developing it "behind closed doors" has been at avoiding distraction and confusion. |
I don't understand how limiting the people that can see it in its very early stages causes *distraction and confusion*. In my opinion that isn't the fault of the developers of PMS, but the people who conjure up this so called distraction and confusion. |
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Paapaa
l33t
Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 955
Location: Finland
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Bad Penguin wrote: | | And we can all see how successful developing it "behind closed doors" has been at avoiding distraction and confusion. |
Nothing wrong in that approach - which is quite common in OSS world too. First you have to have something to work on. Then you can open it for anyone to comment/improve on. Eventhough something will eventually be open (source) it doesn't mean the design process benefits from it or has to done openly. I think KDE, Povray and GPL3 drafts are some good examples. There are most likely many others too.
I actually think it is better to led few individuals make the first draft and then open it for wider audience. |
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depontius
Advocate
Joined: 05 May 2004
Posts: 3509
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Think4UrS11 wrote: | | depontius wrote: | | is it possible to get banned by simply ruffling the wrong developer's/moderator's feathers? |
| Code of conduct - consequences wrote: | | Any action of this sort will require consensus from at least three proctors |
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Missed that, thanks.
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padoor
Advocate
Joined: 30 Dec 2005
Posts: 4185
Location: india
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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i would like to request all concerned gentoo family to forget the personal differences and promote the original idea of developing gentoo which they have chosen on their own and work for the welfare of all of us here in gentoo.
nobody has forced somebody to work for gentoo. pety clashes are always present in any organisation.
it is a pity to find the people who are technically very sound are not so in diplomacy
one should be able to give a deaf ear to things which he doesnot want to hear even screaming. the end result aim is same for everybody working for gentoo.
may God give us peace here. not pieces
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vipernicus
Veteran
Joined: 17 Jan 2005
Posts: 1462
Location: Your College IT Dept.
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Naib
Watchman
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 6051
Location: Removed by Neddy
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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not that quote again!!! just because L.Torvald is a jackass is no justification for "The Troll" to be a jackass either (or others)
YOU DO NOT ATTACK THE INDIVIDUAL!!!
Shite if I pulled a stunt like that at work over someone's brain-dead design I would be subject to a nice month of ethics training as well as my next appraisal mostly involving me being ripped a new A-Hole for being a complete inconsiderate, lack of personal skill's jackass. Such attitude or speak does NOT! belong in a team-based project (whether you are the leader or a grunt)
| JackAss L.Torvalds wrote: |
Davem is a f*cking clueless moron, here's what he did and
here's why it's wrong |
YOU DO NOT DO THAT! EVER!
what gets said is
| more tactful attack on the problem wrote: |
That implementation is a f*cking joke, here is what is wrong and here is how it should be done |
NOTE two massive differences between the two
1) the attack is directed at a particular instance of stupidity NOT the individual (since at the very least resentment is formed)
2) dialogue has been opened to actual solve the problem (where the fuck is the constructive criticism?)
Linus just insulted someone with that quote, not a single statement about how it should be fixed! People who do that do not know how to fix and are the bigger idiots!
again
YOU DO NOT ATTACK THE INDIVIDUAL!!!
I mean seriously just because Linux and some software project exist in a virtual world does not mean basic respect should be thrown out of the window!
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hc2
n00b
Joined: 10 Mar 2007
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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Attacking an individual is rarely based on the quality of their work/idea/etc. It is usually based on the quality (or lack of) in your own life.
Seems to me Gentoo is having some growth pains. From what I have been reading, a lot of good people involved on both sides of this issue. Let's see what the proposed code of conduct turns out to be and decide if we want to support it or go our own way. Linux, the FSF,Xfree/Xorg, and most of the other older distros have had similar periods of growth. I'm an optimist and believe Gentoo will probably have more "crisises" similiar to this one down the road.
Slackware is one distro that has been relatively "crisis" free, but it has been a one man show- and seems to have lost some of its growth in the past couple of years.
Thanks to everyone who has contributed to Gentoo, it is a nice distro to work with these days. |
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ShadowWizzard
n00b
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 70
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 4:44 am Post subject: |
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Completely agree with Naib.
A real words of wisdom.
Maybe I missed something but do the Gentoo have any steering committee in certain areas ?? |
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devsk
Advocate
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 2995
Location: Bay Area, CA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 8:38 am Post subject: |
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| Naib wrote: |
not that quote again!!! just because L.Torvald is a jackass is no justification for "The Troll" to be a jackass either (or others)
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I think you totally misunderstood what Linus was trying there. It was meant to be a joke, to lighten up the situation a bit (if you read the whole thread to end, you will notice how ultimately Linus actually provided a patch to fix the issue: a very rare leadership quality, where the leader is ready to get his hands dirty with folks and take matters in his own hand). In this particular case (and there other instances where I think he's been a real jerk), I actually laughed out loud after reading Linus's comment. But yeah, electronic communications are messed up that way! jokes easily become flames.
as for the whole 'gentoo in crisis' thing: it happens all the time and gentoo won't die because of it, and I have seen enough people leave gentoo over the past 4 years. Good things in life never end!
and for the 'gentoo has become unstable in last 2 years': I don't agree. We have had few hiccups with xorg, expat and company, but overall its been as stable as ever. Portage has picked up speed in this period, despite the fact that the tree has grown much larger. |
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Paapaa
l33t
Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 955
Location: Finland
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:50 am Post subject: |
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| devsk wrote: | | as for the whole 'gentoo in crisis' thing: it happens all the time and gentoo won't die because of it, and I have seen enough people leave gentoo over the past 4 years. Good things in life never end! |
I agree totally with this. We only lost a few devs and we will most likely get new ones soon. Nothing new here. Gentoo is going strong and DistroWatch sucks anyway.
Also, I'm not convinced about the whole CoC/punishment stuff now being discussed. This is not a police state. We don't need life time bans. This is just a goddamn Linux distro with volunteers contributing. I don't like the idea of permanent bans at all - this applies to IRC, forums dev-mailing list etc. Also I don't like the idea of yet another layer of red tape. A temporary ban of maybe 1 week should be enough in the absolutely worst cases - and none of the recent incidents belong to that category. Other than that: let the devs fight! All the flame wars die eventually.
Now things goes like:
C: "You idiot! You broke the car we were supposed to go to school with!"
D: "MOMMY, MOMMY!! C called me an idiot!!! It's against the rulez!!!"
Mommy: "But why did you break our car??? We need the car!"
D: "MOMMY, MOMMY!! It's irrelevant and C needs to be punished for breaking the rules!!!!"
Mommy: "No, first I'll call up the whole family and ask their decision on this case: was it really an ad hominem. Daddy can then make a proposal on banning C from our home forever. Then you can't even receive phone calls from him."
Eventually C is banned and the car is still broken. I'd like to see it go like this:
C: "You idiot! You broke the car we were supposed to go to school with!"
D: "MOMMY, MOMMY!! C called me an idiot!!! It's against the rulez!!!"
Mommy: "Shut the fsck up and fix the car!"
Mommy: "C: shut up, help D fixing the car and finish that PMS!"
Now the car gets fixed and we lose no devs. We just need a good Mommy  |
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The Unknown
Guru
Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Posts: 335
Location: Minnesota, U.S.A
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with Naib entirely,even if it was a joke try being on the other end.
People end up losing a great deal of respect for you in return.The very first line of Naib`s post is a prime example. |
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jonnevers
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Joined: 02 Jan 2003
Posts: 1594
Location: Gentoo64 land
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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| The Unknown wrote: | I agree with Naib entirely,even if it was a joke try being on the other end.
People end up losing a great deal of respect for you in return.The very first line of Naib`s post is a prime example. |
you mean this line?
| Quote: | | not that quote again!!! just because L.Torvald is a jackass is no justification for "The Troll" to be a jackass either (or others) |
cause quite frankly, I'm disgusted by the personal attacks still occurring on the person Naib is referring to as, not just a troll but "The Troll" all while calling Torvald a jackass.
hypocrisy in action, to cannot say "YOU DON'T ATTACKS INDIVIDUALS" then to call someone "The Troll"... same difference. In my opinion, people are taking a far to personal interest in this situation, especially that it's no longer fresh.
I've lost respect for several people on these forums over their constant attacks on Ciaranm. Voicing one's opinion is perfectly valid but some have taken it to a new level. And I expect those people have had no other interaction with Ciaranm besides posting in these forums. I haven't but I'm not bad mouthing him either, nor supporting him. I support Gentoo.
I'm also not saying his criticisms are necessarily wrong or invalid but that they are out of place and unneeded. Perhaps some people just need their high horse to be shot, so we can move on. |
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The Unknown
Guru
Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Posts: 335
Location: Minnesota, U.S.A
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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Please dont take me wrong.I dont even know who "the troll" is or what he has done.
I was trying say calling Torvald a jackass was a sign of loss/lack respect,that is all. |
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The Unknown
Guru
Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Posts: 335
Location: Minnesota, U.S.A
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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| My agreement/interest in Naib`s post was not of this topic,but of human relation. |
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Naib
Watchman
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 6051
Location: Removed by Neddy
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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| jonnevers wrote: | | The Unknown wrote: | I agree with Naib entirely,even if it was a joke try being on the other end.
People end up losing a great deal of respect for you in return.The very first line of Naib`s post is a prime example. |
you mean this line?
| Quote: | | not that quote again!!! just because L.Torvald is a jackass is no justification for "The Troll" to be a jackass either (or others) |
cause quite frankly, I'm disgusted by the personal attacks still occurring on the person Naib is referring to as, not just a troll but "The Troll" all while calling Torvald a jackass.
hypocrisy in action, to cannot say "YOU DON'T ATTACKS INDIVIDUALS" then to call someone "The Troll"... same difference. In my opinion, people are taking a far to personal interest in this situation, especially that it's no longer fresh.
I've lost respect for several people on these forums over their constant attacks on Ciaranm. Voicing one's opinion is perfectly valid but some have taken it to a new level. And I expect those people have had no other interaction with Ciaranm besides posting in these forums. I haven't but I'm not bad mouthing him either, nor supporting him. I support Gentoo.
I'm also not saying his criticisms are necessarily wrong or invalid but that they are out of place and unneeded. Perhaps some people just need their high horse to be shot, so we can move on. |
what personal attack?
1) I have been at the recieving end of "The Trolls" handicap many a time and well there is only so much I can take
2) has "The Troll" posted in this thread and have I responded directly at him?
3) what do you have againsy common curtisy to fellow members and more to the point why is "the troll" completly incapable of any?
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psyqil
Advocate
Joined: 26 May 2003
Posts: 2767
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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So, once you've realized that you've been "on the receiving end of 'The Troll'", why didn't you do what is widely considered the best way to deal with such species, namely ignore him? No, you get high blood pressure and present such gems as
"TORVALDS, YOU JACKASS,
YOU DO NOT ATTACK THE INDIVIDUAL!!!
YOU DO NOT DO THAT! EVER! "
That really will help, thank you!  |
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minskpower
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 94
Location: /dev/null
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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While it may be amusing to read about Linus being a jackass, perhaps it's better to stay with the original topic.
Since this thread is about the Distrowatch article, I will selectively quote:
| Distrowatch wrote: |
Many other open source software projects also suffer from large scale flame wars from time to time. However, what distinguishes Gentoo from other such projects is the fact that it doesn't have a mechanism to deal with poisonous individuals. Or to be more precise, the existing mechanism do not work, since the present structures don't have the necessary powers to be effective in solving conflicts. As a result, over the last few years Gentoo Linux has degenerated into a loose structure that is increasingly run by a small, power-hungry clique that resents any attempt to change the current status quo.
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(emphasis added by me)
As far as I can see, this is a pretty serious attack at the current leadership of gentoo. I am not aware of any attempt of changing the "status quo" by anyone.
Moreover, IIRC gentoo leadership is elected through fair vote by developers. The tone of the article suggests it has been written by a disgruntled person who has (or had) a position inside Gentoo, with the express purpose of spreading FUD. Or perhaps if it's not FUD, said person should present proof for these serious claims.
The question remains, who is this person, and why do we have to read such a rant in Distrowatch, instead of here, in official Gentoo channels. |
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Naib
Watchman
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 6051
Location: Removed by Neddy
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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| psyqil wrote: | So, once you've realized that you've been "on the receiving end of 'The Troll'", why didn't you do what is widely considered the best way to deal with such species, namely ignore him? No, you get high blood pressure and present such gems as
"TORVALDS, YOU JACKASS,
YOU DO NOT ATTACK THE INDIVIDUAL!!!
YOU DO NOT DO THAT! EVER! "
That really will help, thank you! |
really? where exactly did I say that where exactly!
I believe what I said was he is a jackass, big difference
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think4urs11
Bodhisattva
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 6659
Location: above the cloud
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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as this discussion seems to go nowhere and we're short of calling each other names precautionary locked.
Please cool down.
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Januszzz
Guru
Joined: 04 Feb 2006
Posts: 367
Location: Opole, Poland
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| Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 11:25 pm Post subject: Gentoo: "instability and risk of breakdown?" |
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Hey, I'm launching some Linux oriented website and when I was googling for some stuff to include in, and after Firefox (google) suggestion i just typed the most popular words around the linux world:
"most popular linux distribution"
It results with this http://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=major where we can find this:
Gentoo Linux has lost much of its original glory in recent years. Some Gentoo users have come to a realisation that the time-consuming compiling of software packages brings only marginal speed and optimisation benefits. Ever since the resignation of Gentoo's founder and benevolent dictator from the project in 2004, the newly established Gentoo Foundation has been battling with lack of clear directions and frequent developer conflicts, which resulted in several high-profile departures of well-known Gentoo personalities. It remains to be seen whether Gentoo can regain its innovative qualities of the past or whether it will slowly disintegrate into a loose collection of personal sub-projects lacking clearly-defined goals.
and this:
Cons: Occasional instability and risk of breakdown, the project suffers from lack of directions and frequent infighting between its developers
As I'm very Gentoo oriented I felt very sad about this. Not only on GWN we can see implications of "bad behavior", but this is also very well known outside for years...
Please let me know if being a Gentoo fanatic is still as cool as it was before as I feel being corrupt and struck by opinions like this. And please give a PATCH for this opinion on Distrowatch if you could, please.
Do not expose bad behavior anymore... |
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Mad Merlin
Veteran
Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 1155
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| Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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IMO, using Gentoo for speculative speed gains is missing the point. The reason I use Gentoo is that it has the most complete and up to date package repository, and does exactly what I tell it to (and nothing more). The other main reason I use Gentoo is that it allows me to keep a completely up to date system all the time, rather than just once every 6 months or so, with a minimal amount of pain.
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Sadako
Advocate
Joined: 05 Aug 2004
Posts: 3792
Location: sleeping in the bathtub
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| Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 12:09 am Post subject: |
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I think stating "the project suffers from lack of directions and frequent infighting between its developers" in the cons is something of an exaggeration,
but apart from that the full gentoo article seemed really fair to me.
In fact, after reading through all the overviews posted on that page, I think gentoo comes off pretty well.
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jseymour
Apprentice
Joined: 23 Jun 2006
Posts: 202
Location: Gainesville Florida
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| Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 12:50 am Post subject: |
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Well, maybe I am just lucky, but I have never experienced any instability with Gentoo. I do pick and choose which ~x86 software I install, but even with that no troubles at all.
With some of my past OS usage I experienced much more in the way of instability/dependency problems.
(better knock on some wood now) 
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AllenJB
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Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 1285
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| Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 8:31 am Post subject: |
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All of this has happened before... - Distrowatch are known not to like us very much. I choose to pretty much ignore them.
I use a basic stable system with a selection of ~arch packages (notably KDE, OOo, Firefox, Thunderbird and Amarok plus probably some others I can't remember off the top of my head) plus I have some overlays mixed in (mostly the Java teams overlays from overlays.gentoo.org) and some of my own home-grown packages. I very rarely experience instability.
The biggest complaint I would make against Gentoo right now is the occasional digest problems that occur and how long they take to fix (usually because the devs always wait for the original committer to correct the digest - and I can see why they do this). |
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