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Naib
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Joined: 21 May 2004
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 Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 9:41 pm Post subject: Save Gentoo Thread |
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Ok What the hell is going on within the Dev's of Gentoo
Thats: Bryan Østergaard
http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/msg_145740.xml
And: Alexander Færøy
http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/msg_145764.xml
Sure dev's come and go, the problem is as anyone know you need some people around with experience to help bring upto speed the new blood.
Quite a few experienced dev's have been leaving so what state does that leave the foundation?
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steveb
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Joined: 18 Sep 2002
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 10:27 pm Post subject: Re: Save Gentoo Thread |
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| Naib wrote: | | ... so what state does that leave the foundation? |
In a state where they need good developers joining the fondation. How about you? |
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Naib
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 10:29 pm Post subject: |
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if you are in need of someone that can design a 5Mhz active gate drive for an IGBT then I'm yor man (or some slight python hacking)
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steveb
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Naib wrote: | | if you are in need of someone that can design a 5Mhz active gate drive for an IGBT then I'm yor man (or some slight python hacking) |
Well... your Python hacking is a start. Now if you have time to commit to the Gentoo foundation, then I am not holding you back.
In the beginning I was once thinking to become a Gentoo developer. But after trying to read all the stuff needed to become a developer I have realized that it is ultra hard for me to be a developer for Gentoo. Not that I can not develop (it is my job and it's what I am doing the last 18 years) but you need to have a sponsor (another Gentoo developer), you need to know every bit and command of portage, have a gazillion of daily hours available for the development position, etc, etc, etc...
Something I just can not come up with. Beside all the English stuff which can be a problem for a German speaking person. Anyway... I have then made the decision to not dream of becoming a Gentoo developer. I still do development but it is just for me or for my customers.
I see Gentoo as a great distribution and I strongly believe that it will survive. |
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Genone
Retired Dev
Joined: 14 Mar 2003
Posts: 9609
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 11:01 pm Post subject: |
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| steveb wrote: | | Naib wrote: | | if you are in need of someone that can design a 5Mhz active gate drive for an IGBT then I'm yor man (or some slight python hacking) |
Well... your Python hacking is a start. Now if you have time to commit to the Gentoo foundation, then I am not holding you back.
In the beginning I was once thinking to become a Gentoo developer. But after trying to read all the stuff needed to become a developer I have realized that it is ultra hard for me to be a developer for Gentoo. Not that I can not develop (it is my job and it's what I am doing the last 18 years) but you need to have a sponsor (another Gentoo developer), you need to know every bit and command of portage, have a gazillion of daily hours available for the development position, etc, etc, etc... |
See, that's the wrong way to approach it (IMHO). In the "good old days" people simply contributed (doing the stuff they wanted to do) and learned the necessary stuff along the way. Then if their work was considered useful they were asked to become devs. Granted back then the docs were much shorter and there was less administration overhead involved, but IMHO that way is still the way to go. Don't start with "what can I do for Gentoo, what do I have to do to become a dev" but with "what annoys me the most and how can I fix it". When following that approach you'll eventually end up as an expert in a certain area and some existing Gentoo dev working in that area will ask you to join (for example I've recruited people because they provided lots of patches for revdep-rebuild and ufed and were effectively maintaining those tools already, not because they impressed me by reciting the handbook).
I guess that's the bad side of the extensive documentation, people are afraid that they have to know all of it before being able to do anything useful. |
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G2k
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Joined: 06 Mar 2004
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Location: Rome, Italy
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 11:18 pm Post subject: |
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I really like the Gentoo project, more than other Linux distros. However, I have stopped using it for some time now hoping that the project will get its stuff together and not progress one teardrop at a time. Not that I'm complaining, but the website was supposed to have a whole new interface I remember a few years ago and that never happened. What does that tell you (or me in this case?) Simple, that the project is uncoordinated and people cannot agree on what to put/not put or how to go about improving the project. I really hope the project survives and supersedes Sabayon on DistroWatch, which IMO, is a very poorly constructed distro.
Nobody will start working any harder now that I've written this but many have protested and it would be nice if the Gentoo devs or new aspiring devs actually listen to the community and start coordinating and improving this project which has so much more potential.
A Happy Ex-User
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Phenax
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Joined: 10 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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Well, I don't closely monitor internal stature.. but my Gentoo system is rocking so I can only assume good things are happening.
What I think it is, is about ten out of two-hundred developers (and thousands of contributors) cause some noise and people think that the whole Gentoo project is falling apart. |
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steveb
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 2:49 am Post subject: |
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| Genone wrote: | See, that's the wrong way to approach it (IMHO). In the "good old days" people simply contributed (doing the stuff they wanted to do) and learned the necessary stuff along the way. Then if their work was considered useful they were asked to become devs. Granted back then the docs were much shorter and there was less administration overhead involved, but IMHO that way is still the way to go. Don't start with "what can I do for Gentoo, what do I have to do to become a dev" but with "what annoys me the most and how can I fix it". When following that approach you'll eventually end up as an expert in a certain area and some existing Gentoo dev working in that area will ask you to join (for example I've recruited people because they provided lots of patches for revdep-rebuild and ufed and were effectively maintaining those tools already, not because they impressed me by reciting the handbook).
I guess that's the bad side of the extensive documentation, people are afraid that they have to know all of it before being able to do anything useful. |
Becoming a Gentoo developer is hard as hell. At least the last time I checked. You have to answer 1'000 questions on a form and read a lot of documentation (in order to be able to answer everything) and beside that you have to search for a sponsor. If I look how hard it is even to get a well written ebuild into portage then I think getting one of the overloaded Gentoo developers to be your sponsor is even harder.
You basically have to hang out on the Gentoo IRC channel for months and make a lot of noise until some developer hears you. This is just to much effort for me. If I want to become a Gentoo developer then for the Gentoo community and not for another Gentoo developer. This may now sound against Gentoo developers but it is not. I have the biggest respect for the Gentoo developers. They all together with the Gentoo users make the distro I love the most.
But to be honest: Why a Gentoo developer? For what? If I read all the stuff posted on the developers mailing list then I must say that it is a very bitchy job. At the end it is more fight then joy. And I have enough of this bitchy stuff when developing for customers. Why then expose my private time to more trouble? (I don't live with the illusion that development is always joy. I am to long doing this to know that development is damn hard bone work. But hard work is different then a bitchy job or bitchy environment. Sorry for my words. I have hard time to express in English what I think. I just want to say that the environment around you should be a friendly environment. If the codevelopers around you are idiots, you hate to work with them, the end customer (the Gentoo users) don't appreciate your work, you hate to do what yo do, etc... then it is a bitchy environment. Then it is better to not be a developer or to do something completely different.)
And I am much happy with Gentoo as a distro. I have everything needed to use the product. And I have enough power and knowledge to change it to whatever I need. At the end Gentoo is mainly nothing else then Portage (including the ebuilds) and the various scripts (init scripts, etc). And that's it. Off course things could be made better on many levels but I have not found anything in Gentoo so disturbing to motivate me to move to another distro. So this means to me that I either have learned to live with the problem or I have a solution for the problem or I just don't care.
I am a happy Gentoo user since the first time Gentoo was public available. And as long as this distro is here and the distro does not stop me in using it for what I need, I don't see any reason to complain. Way back when Gentoo was at the beginning I saw a lot of opportunities for development and I had the feeling that being a part of Gentoo or being a Gentoo developer would be something good and a way to contribute back. But today I see the position of a Gentoo developer as something I don't wish to fit into.
I even find my self thinking: "Found a bug (in ebuild, in some thing inside Gentoo, etc) or I have written a ebuild or I could code this super-dupper-ultra-giga cool Gentoo application, etc... Hmm... I should post it to bugs.gentoo.org or I could start a discussion on forums.gentoo.org or I could post my ideas at the Gentoo IRC channel. No! It will anyway not change anything. It will just expose me to more trouble; developers will bitch at me; my contribution will anyway stay there for too long time; users will attack me personally; etc..."
In the beginning I never ever questioned my self so hard. Today I really ask my self 10'000 times before contributing back. Not being an active part of some thing is really helpful. You have automatically less expectations and you automatically get less disappointed. (I am Swiss and I am used to direct democracy. I can vote to most stuff what happens inside our country (Not every 4 years like in other countries. Almost every month/week there are stuff to vote for). Not voting is a decision as well. And I use this right with Gentoo. I don't vote (I don't even think that I can vote or at least I don't know how to do that in the Gentoo decision process) or I don't participate actively and I accept the outcome.)
We live in a time where new Gentoo releases (for example 2007.0) are rated by how well the graphical installer is and how nice Gnome/KDE/whatever looks on Gentoo. The years are flying and every year I care less about those reviews and the distro or desktop environment war. If some one is judging Gentoo by the way KDE looks on Gentoo then they have not understand that Gentoo is +/- not patching the hell out of KDE and that KDE on Gentoo +/- looks the same way as if you would download the KDE packages form kde.org and compile it yourself. And this is not only valid for KDE. Most packages are left the way they are. Okay... okay... there are packages where we heavy patching but they are not so much of them. If I only look at Red Hat/SuSE (yes... I have to work with them. I even sell them. Damn support. But business customers want support) then I know that Gentoo is trying to keep the packages as virgin as possible.
So basically Gentoo does not need that much developers. We would only need much more people taking care or creating ebuilds and people handling stuff on bugs.gentoo.org and people writing good documentation for the various Gentoo tools (Gentoo documentation is really good) and then we need a hand full of very skilled developers to make fundamental changes in the Gentoo architecture and we would need a half hand full of good leaders. But we don't need gazillion of real hard core developers. Most stuff in Gentoo works. Maybe I am not understanding what exactly a Gentoo developer is but in my eyes a Gentoo developer is/(should be) some one who can rewrite and replace for example Portage to have all the stuff the Gentoo user base is requesting for years (for example: faster processing, reverse unmerging, etc). And those developers should be team players. They should be able to work with other very skilled developers (I hate nothing more then developers which have the social competence of a mouse pad). That's all. We as a community should then on the other hand join forces to enable those developers to work in a friendly and inspiring environment. We should allow/enable them to evolve and we should allow/enable them to work in a place where they can realize their ideas (For us all. Egomanic ideas are not what we as Gentoo community need or want) and our (the community) ideas.
// SteveB |
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steveL
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Joined: 13 Sep 2006
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Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 10:41 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | But to be honest: Why a Gentoo developer? For what? If I read all the stuff posted on the developers mailing list then I must say that it is a very bitchy job. At the end it is more fight then joy. And I have enough of this bitchy stuff when developing for customers. Why then expose my private time to more trouble? |
Heh I couldn't agree more. But the people on IRC are much cooler. I guess it comes down to whether enough stuff annoys you that you want to fix it. There seems to be moves towards getting users involved more, maybe that'll make things better. But yeah, I don't see the attraction either: it sounds like a load of responsibility and stress tbh.
As for the distro itself, it rocks imo, and i can't see myself moving to anything else unless they really mess up. |
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nixnut
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Joined: 09 Apr 2004
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Location: the dutch mountains
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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| steveb wrote: | | Becoming a Gentoo developer is hard as hell. At least the last time I checked. You have to answer 1'000 questions on a form and read a lot of documentation (in order to be able to answer everything) and beside that you have to search for a sponsor. If I look how hard it is even to get a well written ebuild into portage then I think getting one of the overloaded Gentoo developers to be your sponsor is even harder. |
If you're referring to the quizzes, you're wrong. The amount of questions is no more than a few dozen and the answers can be cut and pasted from online documentation. Finding the docs, reading them and finding the answers can be done in an afternoon. And you don't need to know much about portage and ebuild innards either. Nothing more than some decent experience with administrating a gentoo box will do fine.
| Quote: | | You basically have to hang out on the Gentoo IRC channel for months and make a lot of noise until some developer hears you. This is just to much effort for me. |
Not really. You do have to be visible in some way. Being on irc a lot and helping other users is one way. Contributing patches on bugs is another. Contributing ebuilds on the sunrise project is a third.
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Carlo
Developer
Joined: 12 Aug 2002
Posts: 3356
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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| steveb wrote: | | Becoming a Gentoo developer is hard as hell. At least the last time I checked. You have to answer 1'000 questions on a form and read a lot of documentation (in order to be able to answer everything) and beside that you have to search for a sponsor. If I look how hard it is even to get a well written ebuild into portage then I think getting one of the overloaded Gentoo developers to be your sponsor is even harder. |
It's definitely not hard, it's you. When you're not able or willing to go through the documentation to be able to "master" the quiz, it's very likely that you're either not good enough or won't sustain as a Gentoo dev for long, as it is not always fun to work on annyoing bugs or requests you personally don't give a flying fart about, even though they're reasonable. So, if you don't invest a minimum of time, you're not worth it, wasting anyones time to mentor you.
| steveb wrote: | | You basically have to hang out on the Gentoo IRC channel for months [... |
You don't have to use irc at all. As a dev you have to follow gentoo-core and gentoo-dev mailing lists.
| steveb wrote: | | If I read all the stuff posted on the developers mailing list then I must say that it is a very bitchy job. At the end it is more fight then joy. |
You need a thick skin. Some users can get very bitchy, too, btw..
| steveb wrote: | | So basically Gentoo does not need that much developers. |
Plain wrong. I'm pretty sure, there's a lot of stuff not happening, because Gentoo has not enough developers - by far.
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steveb
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| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 4:54 am Post subject: |
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| Carlo wrote: | | It's definitely not hard, it's you. When you're not able or willing to go through the documentation to be able to "master" the quiz, it's very likely that you're either not good enough or won't sustain as a Gentoo dev for long, as it is not always fun to work on annyoing bugs or requests you personally don't give a flying fart about, even though they're reasonable. So, if you don't invest a minimum of time, you're not worth it, wasting anyones time to mentor you. |
Maybe you are right. I don't know that since I never walked that way.
| Carlo wrote: | | You don't have to use irc at all. As a dev you have to follow gentoo-core and gentoo-dev mailing lists. |
And how do you get a mentor? On the mailing list?
| Carlo wrote: | | You need a thick skin. Some users can get very bitchy, too, btw.. |
I expect this part (the users) to be the most bitchy part. Not the other way around (developers more bitchy (in quantity and/or quality) then users).
| Carlo wrote: | | Plain wrong. I'm pretty sure, there's a lot of stuff not happening, because Gentoo has not enough developers - by far. |
Okay. I can not judge that. But your statement leaves me under the impression that you don't know if it is like that since you say "I'm pretty sure, ... because ... not enough developers"
So basically you don't know. Does any one at Gentoo know that? Do we have some plan where we want to go with Gentoo? Do the developers have a overview? Does any one have a overview?
Look. My background in development is huge. I run today more then one professional company in the development area. I know how it is when you don't have enough developers. And I know the dilemma you can have when you are looking for new developers: The good one are hard to get and the not so good one are just to much binding your valuable resources with education and at the end you risk that they leave you.
The question you have to ask yourself is: Where do I want to go with my company (in our situation is more a question where we want to go with Gentoo).
If you make the entrance level so hard as possible then a lot of potential developers will not try to enter (except if you have such a huge reputation that developers would kill to get a job at your place. Google is such a company having such a reputation). The quiz is such a big beast that not everyone is willing to work into this beast (You know how most developers are. They hate to read. They hate to document. They just want to code. I am not supporting that but enforcing the quiz and the developer documentation on our potential developers is tactically not the smartest move. Not all developers are professional developers. They don't know how real development is. They know to code and that's it. They are probably not that bad at coding but they are in no way used to a controlled development environment. Maybe it would have more fruits for us if we would allow potential developers to enter without any mentor and any other thing like the quiz etc... And then we don't allow them to just do what ever they want (no CVS/SVN commit, etc). We just throw work (bug fixing, documentation, answering stuff at bugs.gentoo.org, etc) at them and look how they manage it. If they are doing a good job, then force them to read the next level in documentation and take a quiz and promote them. If a potential developer fills in the quiz from the beginning and we can see that he is good then we don't need to go that path described one/two sentences before).
When I checked the quiz then I was overrun with it. It was in English (which is not my native language) and combined with the not so pleasant experience I had with Ebuild submission I was thinking at that time: Well... If I answer this quiz and then apply for a developer position, then it is still not sure that I will manage to become a Gentoo developer. Not because I will not be able to answer the quiz but I was afraid that I will not manage to find a mentor. Answering a quiz is not rocket science. But a mentor? How to get one? Where is a list of all the Gentoo developers? Who to contact? Is there another one speaking my language (helps some time)? etc... Those questions are not answered by reading the developer documentation. And I have read the documentation. I have even taken the quiz (for my self). But after all this reading I still did not have an clear view how to get a mentor. I even mailed the dev team asking how to find a mentor but I did not got an answer. I had the feeling that it is more luck then any thing else when trying to get a mentor. And this actually stopped the desire inside me to become a Gentoo developer. If we as a Gentoo community want more developers, then we must try to make more advertisement for the position of a Gentoo developer. But (I think) we are not doing that. And the whole process how to become a Gentoo developer should be more transparent. You said that it is not needed to hang out on IRC. Well... at that time when I checked then it was written inside the documentation that you should subscribe to the Gentoo developers list, read bugs.gentoo.org, participate at the Gentoo forums, hang out on IRC and look to get into contact with the developer(s) (potential mentor(s)) at Gentoo which are working in that area where you would like to apply as Gentoo developer.
Allow me to ask you: How and why did you become a Gentoo developer? What was your motivation? Have you taken the quiz and then searched for a mentor? Have you taken this path? Or have you followed another path? What was that path?
And allow me another question: What is your education? Are you working professionally in the development area? How many years? Have you any professional education in the development or IT area?
And finally allow me another question: If you would have the possibility to change some things at Gentoo (not the distro) then what would that be? And what would you change in the development area? |
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steveb
Advocate
Joined: 18 Sep 2002
Posts: 4564
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| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 5:07 am Post subject: |
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| nixnut wrote: | | If you're referring to the quizzes, you're wrong. The amount of questions is no more than a few dozen and the answers can be cut and pasted from online documentation. Finding the docs, reading them and finding the answers can be done in an afternoon. And you don't need to know much about portage and ebuild innards either. Nothing more than some decent experience with administrating a gentoo box will do fine. |
It has been some time since I have read the quiz stuff. Maybe it is not so many questions.
| nixnut wrote: | | Not really. You do have to be visible in some way. Being on irc a lot and helping other users is one way. Contributing patches on bugs is another. Contributing ebuilds on the sunrise project is a third. |
Is this described some where? I personally would find it very helpful if a potential developer could see clearly how he can influence in a positive way his application to become a Gentoo developer. I never heard of the above mentioned possibilities. I know that they exist but I did not know that all of them have a influence for becoming a developer.
After reading yours and Carlo's answers I have the impression that
1) either I don't have any overview of how to become a Gentoo developer (I read the process long time ago)
2) or there is a lot of interpretation room on how to become a Gentoo developer
Number 1 is my problem but if number 2 is valid, then some one should take the opportunity and modify the documentation and clear out possible misunderstandings. |
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nixnut
Bodhisattva
Joined: 09 Apr 2004
Posts: 10974
Location: the dutch mountains
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| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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| steveb wrote: | | nixnut wrote: | | Not really. You do have to be visible in some way. Being on irc a lot and helping other users is one way. Contributing patches on bugs is another. Contributing ebuilds on the sunrise project is a third. |
Is this described some where? I personally would find it very helpful if a potential developer could see clearly how he can influence in a positive way his application to become a Gentoo developer. I never heard of the above mentioned possibilities. I know that they exist but I did not know that all of them have a influence for becoming a developer.
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There is some documentation (although it is not very easy to find):
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/handbook/handbook.xml?part=1&chap=2
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/ppc/recruitment.xml
There are also some threads on this forum, like this one
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Genone
Retired Dev
Joined: 14 Mar 2003
Posts: 9609
Location: beyond the rim
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| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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| steveb wrote: | | Maybe it would have more fruits for us if we would allow potential developers to enter without any mentor and any other thing like the quiz etc... And then we don't allow them to just do what ever they want (no CVS/SVN commit, etc). We just throw work (bug fixing, documentation, answering stuff at bugs.gentoo.org, etc) at them and look how they manage it. If they are doing a good job, then force them to read the next level in documentation and take a quiz and promote them. If a potential developer fills in the quiz from the beginning and we can see that he is good then we don't need to go that path described one/two sentences before). |
See, that's exactly what I tried to say in my last post. You don't need any official status to do what you're describing, just do it. If it's just a matter of finding bugs to work on, I hope the new NeedPatch keyword I added a few days ago will help once people start really using it.
| Quote: | | When I checked the quiz then I was overrun with it. It was in English (which is not my native language) and combined with the not so pleasant experience I had with Ebuild submission I was thinking at that time: Well... If I answer this quiz and then apply for a developer position, then it is still not sure that I will manage to become a Gentoo developer. Not because I will not be able to answer the quiz but I was afraid that I will not manage to find a mentor. |
That's the other thing I tried to say: You don't "apply" for a developer position, rather the position should apply for you. You shouldn't have to "find" a mentor, rather the mentor should find you. It's different from how things work in the "professional"/corporate scene. Admitted, that likely doesn't work all the time, especially if we don't have any existing devs in the specific area you want to work in (and yes, submitting ebuilds for new packages often isn't all that rewarding for the very same reason).
The most important thing is (IMHO): your goal shouldn't be to become a dev, the goal should be to help with stuff. Dev status might help with that (as you can commit things directly, and people might be more inclined to listen to you, but that's it), but it isn't a requirement.
| Quote: | | You said that it is not needed to hang out on IRC. Well... at that time when I checked then it was written inside the documentation that you should subscribe to the Gentoo developers list, read bugs.gentoo.org, participate at the Gentoo forums, hang out on IRC and look to get into contact with the developer(s) (potential mentor(s)) at Gentoo which are working in that area where you would like to apply as Gentoo developer. |
Should != Must. It should be obvious that the more communication channels you participate in, the more likely it is to get in contact with people.
| Quote: | | Allow me to ask you: How and why did you become a Gentoo developer? |
How: Contributed patches until people were too annoyed to commit them for me.
Why: Because I wanted to improve certain things.
| Quote: | | What was your motivation? |
Isn't that the same question as above?
| Quote: | | Have you taken the quiz and then searched for a mentor? |
I took the quiz that was current at that time (probably quite different than the one we have today). I didn't search for a mentor, the mentor approached me (as it should be). |
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G2k
l33t
Joined: 06 Mar 2004
Posts: 672
Location: Rome, Italy
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| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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Does Gentoo have a lead developer? Or a couple of them at least? It seems to me that there is no real RoadMap for Gentoo, am I wrong?
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Animula vagula blandula,
Hospes comesque corporis,
Quae nunc abibis in loca
Pallidula rigida nudula,
Nec ut soles dabis iocos...
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nixnut
Bodhisattva
Joined: 09 Apr 2004
Posts: 10974
Location: the dutch mountains
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| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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| G2k wrote: | | Does Gentoo have a lead developer? Or a couple of them at least? It seems to me that there is no real RoadMap for Gentoo, am I wrong? |
No lead developer, no lead developers and no roadmap.
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96140
Retired Dev
Joined: 23 Jan 2005
Posts: 1324
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| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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Last edited by 96140 on Fri Sep 13, 2013 9:18 am; edited 1 time in total |
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G2k
l33t
Joined: 06 Mar 2004
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Location: Rome, Italy
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| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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...er...yeah like GNOME and KDE.
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steveb
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Joined: 18 Sep 2002
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:39 am Post subject: |
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| Genone wrote: | | See, that's exactly what I tried to say in my last post. You don't need any official status to do what you're describing, just do it. If it's just a matter of finding bugs to work on, I hope the new NeedPatch keyword I added a few days ago will help once people start really using it. |
I am already doing that. But I am as well drifting away from it. I have my local repository with currently 215 different packages (not ebuilds. 215 category/package). There I can do what ever I want. If I would be horny on getting the developer status, then I would probably submit all of my stuff to bugs.gentoo.org and try to get developer status.
| Genone wrote: | That's the other thing I tried to say: You don't "apply" for a developer position, rather the position should apply for you. You shouldn't have to "find" a mentor, rather the mentor should find you. It's different from how things work in the "professional"/corporate scene. Admitted, that likely doesn't work all the time, especially if we don't have any existing devs in the specific area you want to work in (and yes, submitting ebuilds for new packages often isn't all that rewarding for the very same reason).
The most important thing is (IMHO): your goal shouldn't be to become a dev, the goal should be to help with stuff. Dev status might help with that (as you can commit things directly, and people might be more inclined to listen to you, but that's it), but it isn't a requirement. |
I have experienced that submitting ebuilds is not that much rewarding. Not that I seek for the reward. But it depends who is on the other end at Gentoo when you submit an ebuild. Some time it can take months until an ebuild submission gets processed.
Btw: I am the last one to wish professional/corporate scene to apply to Gentoo development. I would love to see that reality at Gentoo looks that way as you describe it (mentor finds you and not you the mentor). But I am afraid that this is more wish then reality.
| Genone wrote: | | Should != Must. It should be obvious that the more communication channels you participate in, the more likely it is to get in contact with people. |
Yes....
| Genone wrote: | How: Contributed patches until people were too annoyed to commit them for me.
Why: Because I wanted to improve certain things. |
You have luck. I had once so bad experience with one package and the maintainer never got annoyed (maybe I am to polite on bugs.gentoo.org?  ). He was just hiding and from time to time he committed my stuff (some time a 1 to 1 copy and some time slightly changed (mostly adding his name to the header)) to SVN/CVS. That's all. At that time I would have killed for having commit possibilities for that particular package. Today this maintainer is not any more there and some one new is maintaining that package. The new guy is great. Very responsive, innovative and not just a proxy pushing your changes into SVN/CVS.
| Genone wrote: | | Isn't that the same question as above? |
+/-
| Genone wrote: | | I took the quiz that was current at that time (probably quite different than the one we have today). I didn't search for a mentor, the mentor approached me (as it should be). |
You had luck. I think most people here following your strategy and wishing to become developers don't get that much attention. At least this is what I think when I look at the messages related to that topic at our Gentoo forum. |
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steveb
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Joined: 18 Sep 2002
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:42 am Post subject: |
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| G2k wrote: | | ...er...yeah like GNOME and KDE. |
But we are not GNOME or KDE. We are Gentoo. Where is the roadmap for Gentoo? |
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ToeiRei
Veteran
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 1191
Location: Austria
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 11:42 am Post subject: |
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What would a roadmap for gentoo include? We cannot predict package versions.
Things you might want to have a closer look is the portage roadmap...
Rei
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steveb
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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| ToeiRei wrote: | What would a roadmap for gentoo include? We cannot predict package versions.
Things you might want to have a closer look is the portage roadmap... |
No one can predict package versions. But something like (stupid examples): With version 2008 we want to have: full working graphical installer, portage written in C/C++, blah, blah, blah. Version 2009 should include: blah, blah, blah... |
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steveL
Watchman
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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| steveb wrote: | | No one can predict package versions. But something like (stupid examples): With version 2008 we want to have: full working graphical installer, portage written in C/C++, blah, blah, blah. Version 2009 should include: blah, blah, blah... |
Yeah it's all nice and good to plan it, but it still has to happen. The installer is getting better, from what I hear, and Paludis is a C++ package manager in active development. If these things are important to you, get involved with them; the installer has a mailing list. They'll be ready when they're ready, and that'll be quicker if you do get involved by helping out. You don't need to be a dev to do that, but yeah irc helps. TBH the best bit about it is that users help each other and learn more by doing so, since devs will tell you if you're giving erroneous info (as will knowledgeable users like zlin in #gentoo-dev-help on irc.freenode.org.)
In the interests of healthy competition, I should also mention pkgcore which was originally portage 2 aiui until the main developer retired from gentoo. That's Python and C, and ideas from it seem to turn up in portage. Both projects have irc channels on freenode, but beware of the installer irc channel, especially near release times, as it's really only for devs. The mailing list is the way to get involved with that one. #gentoo-dev-help is your best bet imo. |
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G2k
l33t
Joined: 06 Mar 2004
Posts: 672
Location: Rome, Italy
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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| steveb wrote: | | G2k wrote: | | ...er...yeah like GNOME and KDE. |
But we are not GNOME or KDE. We are Gentoo. Where is the roadmap for Gentoo? |
My point exactly
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