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energyman76b
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 Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:05 am Post subject: seperate users and devs even more. Or: a rant |
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Once upon a time, gentoo had a great community. Devs, users talked with each other on IRC, problems were solved, friction was low. A lot of devs posted on the gentoo-user ml and -dev was a place of vivid discussions. Everybody felt that he was part of a greater entity - the gentoo community.
Than came the core-mailing list. The first seperation. Devs talked in 'secret' and decisions were made based on that talks, that were completly surprising and/or not really clear for the users. Rumours sprang up, he said, she said. A climate of mistrust was created. Also the amount of dev postings on the -user ml went down a lot. Users started to feel seperated from the devs. The first cracks in the community showed themselves. Add software that was not in the offical tree or 'howtos' ridiculed by devs, and the cracks got deeper. Suddenly there were two communities. The dev-community and the user-community.
But still users were able to talk freely to the dev-community at large on the -dev mailing list. Some of the posts by users there were just noise, but others, a lot, where pretty insightfull. They also gave the devs an idea about the problems users had.
And now this will be removed. -dev will be for devs only, and user contributions moderated.
This is just great - there were a lot of mourns in the past about the seperation of users and devs - and what are doing the mighty ones? Increase the seperation! Make the wall higher, the trench deeper. Show the users that they are really just third grade citizens (after devs and arch-testers).
Why? Who came up with this stupid (yes, IMHO this idea is stupid) idea? What are the reasons? Is it to get rid of Ciaran? Or Duncan? Why?
I am so fed up with this. The great days of the old community that was vivid, entertaining and a fun to be part of, died a long time ago. Today we have devs that think of users as a pure nuisance, and users who felt abandoned.
Btw, what happend to 'userrel'?
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Dralnu
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| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:25 am Post subject: |
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If you speak of the reps, they had no power to start with, so they were a waste of 10 seconds of all our lives to vote for...
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energyman76b
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| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:51 am Post subject: |
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| Dralnu wrote: | | If you speak of the reps, they had no power to start with, so they were a waste of 10 seconds of all our lives to vote for... |
exactly. Another case of 'lets create something so the users might not feel totally kept out' that was a total failure because the dev-community just ignored them.
It is great to be a gentoo user. With a lot of luck, your bug reports will survive the bug wranglers, and with a little bit more luck, it won't be just ignored. In the mean time leading devs make stupid decisions that hurt the user base - and nobody cares (pciutils anybody?). And your opinion? Totally not wanted. So shut up. Since not all users shut up, lets make -dev, which was once a mailing lists for devs AND users dev only.
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mark_alec
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Joined: 11 Sep 2004
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| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:49 am Post subject: Re: seperate users and devs even more. Or: a rant |
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| energyman76b wrote: | | Once upon a time, gentoo had a great community. Devs, users talked with each other on IRC, problems were solved, friction was low. A lot of devs posted on the gentoo-user ml and -dev was a place of vivid discussions. Everybody felt that he was part of a greater entity - the gentoo community. |
Once upon a time, gentoo had a tiny community. Devs and users were the same, since no ordinary person would be trying out a new distribution, so they worked on problems together. There as sufficiently low traffic on the mailing lists, so that everyone could help with support, without the need to split it between -dev and -user. Everyone contributed to the community, and knew most of the names of contributors, it was tight and small.
Just showing how you have read history in the way you want to. Gentoo is larger now than it used to be, and division is needed, otherwise it would be unworkable. I am not advocating restricting discussions or excluding non-developers from contributing, but we must accept that times have changed and Gentoo isn't what it once was - a small community of contributors to a new distribution.
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Voltago
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| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:38 am Post subject: Re: seperate users and devs even more. Or: a rant |
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| energyman76b wrote: | | Once upon a time, gentoo had a great community. |
Once upon a time, everything was marvellous and dandy. Then fire was invented. I for one found opening bugs and writing patches works much better for solving problems than writing long whiny forum posts. |
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AllenJB
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| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:08 am Post subject: |
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Well done for only conveying half the story: The original thread is http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/50310
| Quote: | | In addition the gentoo-project list will be created to take over what -dev frequently becomes. There is no requirement to be on this new list. |
So in summary, the original plan says that a new list that anyone can join will be created.
You may also want to read the rest of the thread where many devs are discussing an alternative that appears to do effectively the same, which is opening up the currently completely private -core list as read-only to all.
Please, please, please atleast quote original sources when posting threads like this - especially when it's a mailing list discussion, where ideas get changed as people discuss them. In my opinion too many people are too jumpy about ideas like this and post only half-stories or only what was contained in the original post, and I don't think it does the community any good. |
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Paapaa
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| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:41 am Post subject: Re: seperate users and devs even more. Or: a rant |
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| energyman76b wrote: | Why? Who came up with this stupid (yes, IMHO this idea is stupid) idea? What are the reasons? Is it to get rid of Ciaran? Or Duncan? Why?
I am so fed up with this. The great days of the old community that was vivid, entertaining and a fun to be part of, died a long time ago. Today we have devs that think of users as a pure nuisance, and users who felt abandoned. |
I agree completely. This proposal is just plain stupid and shows that there is something really wrong in Gentoo management:
1. It establishes censorship. We don't need or want censorship in OS projects. You don't agree with person N? Fine, skip his posts. You don't want to read any non-dev posts? Fine, add a filter to your mail client. Don't tell me that a Gentoo dev can't write a proper filter! This proposal aims to completely silence certain people just because certain other people (with too much power) don't agree with them. This is a typical "I don't like him - so I want nobody to like him!" situation. Very, very pathetic.
2. It actually gains very little besides more work to devs (having to moderate). Now we have closed -core for all those sekrit discussions and an open -dev. Then we have closed -dev and open -projects. Only thing is that less devs will read -project so the aim, as I already mentioned, is to put those "unwanted" messages to a place where less devs will read them.
Most discussion in -dev has been 100% polite and acceptable during last months - including posts from both devs and non-devs . So this is just another attempt to silence certain people, certain ideas and certain criticism. I find this very disgusting and I really hope this won't be accepted. I think we need an 100% open channel where devs and non-devs can communicate freely - just like Linux Kernel Mailing List. We need the contributions from both groups.
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energyman76b
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| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 2:08 pm Post subject: Re: seperate users and devs even more. Or: a rant |
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| Voltago wrote: | | energyman76b wrote: | | Once upon a time, gentoo had a great community. |
Once upon a time, everything was marvellous and dandy. Then fire was invented. I for one found opening bugs and writing patches works much better for solving problems than writing long whiny forum posts. |
you mean like my ~1500 gentoo-user and gentoo-amd64 mails? From which maybe a handfull were questions and the rest mails where I tried to help?
Or the bugs I opened?
Yes, I am just a whiney boy who does nothing but whine around.
...
And now I am whining because the gap between devs and users is widened again. FOR NO F* GOOD REASON!
And yes, I read the whole thread before I started this thread - and there was nothing in the freaking wank-fest that supported that decision. No good reason. Not one.
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Dralnu
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| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:43 pm Post subject: Re: seperate users and devs even more. Or: a rant |
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| Paapaa wrote: | | energyman76b wrote: | Why? Who came up with this stupid (yes, IMHO this idea is stupid) idea? What are the reasons? Is it to get rid of Ciaran? Or Duncan? Why?
I am so fed up with this. The great days of the old community that was vivid, entertaining and a fun to be part of, died a long time ago. Today we have devs that think of users as a pure nuisance, and users who felt abandoned. |
I agree completely. This proposal is just plain stupid and shows that there is something really wrong in Gentoo management:
1. It establishes censorship. We don't need or want censorship in OS projects. You don't agree with person N? Fine, skip his posts. You don't want to read any non-dev posts? Fine, add a filter to your mail client. Don't tell me that a Gentoo dev can't write a proper filter! This proposal aims to completely silence certain people just because certain other people (with too much power) don't agree with them. This is a typical "I don't like him - so I want nobody to like him!" situation. Very, very pathetic.
2. It actually gains very little besides more work to devs (having to moderate). Now we have closed -core for all those sekrit discussions and an open -dev. Then we have closed -dev and open -projects. Only thing is that less devs will read -project so the aim, as I already mentioned, is to put those "unwanted" messages to a place where less devs will read them.
Most discussion in -dev has been 100% polite and acceptable during last months - including posts from both devs and non-devs . So this is just another attempt to silence certain people, certain ideas and certain criticism. I find this very disgusting and I really hope this won't be accepted. I think we need an 100% open channel where devs and non-devs can communicate freely - just like Linux Kernel Mailing List. We need the contributions from both groups. |
QFT.
Unless the devs have to little free time they can't even write out a filter they could easily add names to, or if they can't (which would be quite a sad thing), then they might need someone to take their place.
For all they know, if they were to open up, they MIGHT get more help..
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Carlo
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| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:36 pm Post subject: Re: seperate users and devs even more. Or: a rant |
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| energyman76b wrote: | | Than came the core-mailing list. The first seperation. Devs talked in 'secret' and decisions were made based on that talks |
Unbased speculation on your side. There have never been technical discussions on gentoo-core. And this list is much older than you might be aware of, so the "then came" stanza is just wrong.
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energyman76b
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| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:50 pm Post subject: Re: seperate users and devs even more. Or: a rant |
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| Carlo wrote: | | energyman76b wrote: | | Than came the core-mailing list. The first seperation. Devs talked in 'secret' and decisions were made based on that talks |
Unbased speculation on your side. There have never been technical discussions on gentoo-core. And this list is much older than you might be aware of, so the "then came" stanza is just wrong. |
And I am not saying that. But there happend stuff on core, that had very visible results - but only devs knew why and what happened and the users were left in the dark.
Plus, when was core created again?
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Carlo
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| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:04 pm Post subject: Re: seperate users and devs even more. Or: a rant |
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| energyman76b wrote: | | But there happend stuff on core, that had very visible results |
I can only guess what you mean, but - so what, some organisational stuff is internal to the community of devs and not business of the public.
| energyman76b wrote: | | Plus, when was core created again? |
Can't tell you. Existed when I joined Gentoo as a dev. The oldest reference I read indicates it exists at least since 2002.
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zxy
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| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:36 pm Post subject: Re: seperate users and devs even more. Or: a rant |
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| Paapaa wrote: | ...
...
Most discussion in -dev has been 100% polite and acceptable during last months - including posts from both devs and non-devs . So this is just another attempt to silence certain people, certain ideas and certain criticism. I find this very disgusting and I really hope this won't be accepted. I think we need an 100% open channel where devs and non-devs can communicate freely - just like Linux Kernel Mailing List. We need the contributions from both groups. |
I must agree, that 100% open discussions are needed. Separating or closing the doors to people with uneasy questions, or the ones that expose things that need to be worked on, doesn't seem constructive to me. Yea, it can make -dev look peacefull, quiet, where everybody just loves each other. But that probably won't make gentoo better, it'll probaly make it worse. Ignoring problems is not the way to solve them. (Just like in life)
So what if somebody calls somebody else a name. From where I come from it's quite ordinary to say to somebody "Don't be such an idiot." (and swear, too). And that person won't take it hard especialy if he might be (in certain situation). Calling somebody a name, might bring he's attention closer, otherwise he might heave overlooked the problem. Especialy if there are to many nice words describing the problem.
Not jumping on words, but jumping on problems is what's needed, and what will make gentoo better and what will make gentoo look good in media, too. Eh, press turns as wind blows. Quality doesn't. If we follow the press, heh, we can as well throw the dice and choose the direction by it, no?
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mrness
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:54 am Post subject: Re: seperate users and devs even more. Or: a rant |
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| Dralnu wrote: | | Unless the devs have to little free time they can't even write out a filter they could easily add names to |
You don't have a clue of what you're talking about. Flames cannot be filtered automatically. Filtering offender's addresses wont do any good because you still receive replies from the ones who swallowed the bait.
| Dralnu wrote: | ...or if they can't (which would be quite a sad thing), then they might need someone to take their place.
For all they know, if they were to open up, they MIGHT get more help.. |
You're welcome if you wanna try. Just prove you have what it takes. |
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aidanjt
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:41 am Post subject: |
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I agree with the OP, trying to alert devs to problems these days is like trying to find a genie in a bottle. Bug reporting has become a chore to bring attention to, it makes user contributions too much effort to bother with and eventually leads to rants like this and others.
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steveL
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:39 am Post subject: Re: seperate users and devs even more. Or: a rant |
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| mrness wrote: | | You don't have a clue of what you're talking about. Flames cannot be filtered automatically. Filtering offender's addresses wont do any good because you still receive replies from the ones who swallowed the bait. |
She often doesn't (as the next bit showed) but fwiw I find Ignore Thread in KNode to be most efficacious..
| Quote: | | Dralnu wrote: | ...or if they can't (which would be quite a sad thing), then they might need someone to take their place.
For all they know, if they were to open up, they MIGHT get more help.. |
You're welcome if you wanna try. Just prove you have what it takes. |
Indeed. It's easy to whinge, but personally I think a bug report with a patch is a lot less effort in the end.
| AidanJT wrote: | | I agree with the OP, trying to alert devs to problems these days is like trying to find a genie in a bottle. Bug reporting has become a chore to bring attention to, it makes user contributions too much effort to bother with and eventually leads to rants like this and others. |
I agree with the OP that the proposed dev m-l changes are counter-productive, but not that bug-reporting is so difficult. Devs are pretty responsive to bugs ime, although they can be stubborn. At least you get a response, and if it's completely out of line, file a bug with devrel about them. That's what you're supposed to do, and is the only way the nastier ones will change. (NB I haven't actually encountered anything of that sort on bugzilla personally, so this is more a hypothetical afaic.) |
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energyman76b
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:36 pm Post subject: Re: seperate users and devs even more. Or: a rant |
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| steveL wrote: |
| AidanJT wrote: | | I agree with the OP, trying to alert devs to problems these days is like trying to find a genie in a bottle. Bug reporting has become a chore to bring attention to, it makes user contributions too much effort to bother with and eventually leads to rants like this and others. |
I agree with the OP that the proposed dev m-l changes are counter-productive, but not that bug-reporting is so difficult. Devs are pretty responsive to bugs ime, although they can be stubborn. At least you get a response, and if it's completely out of line, file a bug with devrel about them. That's what you're supposed to do, and is the only way the nastier ones will change. (NB I haven't actually encountered anything of that sort on bugzilla personally, so this is more a hypothetical afaic.) |
I have to admit, as soon as you get the attention of a dev for your bug, they are usually very helpfull and the solutions will be found very fast. The annoying thing is, when you report a bug, and it is invalidated, because the bug wrangler don't understand the issue, or they invalidate it because of cflags - which are completly nonrelevant for sandbox errors or autoconf problems... and other stuff like that...
And then there are the bugs from the stone age. You hit a problem - you search in bugzilla: zarro bugs found.
You open a bug. 24h later it is marked as a duplicate of a bug that is a) open for ages or b) was closed ages ago.
You should not hit bugs today, that were 'closed' a year ago...
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Dralnu
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:51 pm Post subject: Re: seperate users and devs even more. Or: a rant |
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| energyman76b wrote: | | steveL wrote: |
| AidanJT wrote: | | I agree with the OP, trying to alert devs to problems these days is like trying to find a genie in a bottle. Bug reporting has become a chore to bring attention to, it makes user contributions too much effort to bother with and eventually leads to rants like this and others. |
I agree with the OP that the proposed dev m-l changes are counter-productive, but not that bug-reporting is so difficult. Devs are pretty responsive to bugs ime, although they can be stubborn. At least you get a response, and if it's completely out of line, file a bug with devrel about them. That's what you're supposed to do, and is the only way the nastier ones will change. (NB I haven't actually encountered anything of that sort on bugzilla personally, so this is more a hypothetical afaic.) |
I have to admit, as soon as you get the attention of a dev for your bug, they are usually very helpfull and the solutions will be found very fast. The annoying thing is, when you report a bug, and it is invalidated, because the bug wrangler don't understand the issue, or they invalidate it because of cflags - which are completly nonrelevant for sandbox errors or autoconf problems... and other stuff like that...
And then there are the bugs from the stone age. You hit a problem - you search in bugzilla: zarro bugs found.
You open a bug. 24h later it is marked as a duplicate of a bug that is a) open for ages or b) was closed ages ago.
You should not hit bugs today, that were 'closed' a year ago... |
You also forgot cases where bugs will be marked as dups of other bugs that have little if any real revelance to the current issue, most of the time which the refered to bug has been closed...
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steveL
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| Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:20 am Post subject: Re: seperate users and devs even more. Or: a rant |
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| energyman76b wrote: | | steveL wrote: | | I agree with the OP that the proposed dev m-l changes are counter-productive, but not that bug-reporting is so difficult. Devs are pretty responsive to bugs ime, although they can be stubborn. At least you get a response, and if it's completely out of line, file a bug with devrel about them. That's what you're supposed to do, and is the only way the nastier ones will change. (NB I haven't actually encountered anything of that sort on bugzilla personally, so this is more a hypothetical afaic.) |
I have to admit, as soon as you get the attention of a dev for your bug, they are usually very helpfull and the solutions will be found very fast. |
Well that's one good thing then 
| Quote: | | The annoying thing is, when you report a bug, and it is invalidated, because the bug wrangler don't understand the issue, or they invalidate it because of cflags - which are completly nonrelevant for sandbox errors or autoconf problems... and other stuff like that... |
Well if it's irrelevant, surely the bug would be reproducible with the CFLAGS changed to standard ones?
| Quote: | | And then there are the bugs from the stone age. You hit a problem - you search in bugzilla: zarro bugs found. |
That's bad searching, altho I agree the interface isn't great. Try emerge deskzilla (autounmask is useful if you need to unmask stuff regularly.) But check out the search guide in http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/bugzilla-howto.xml as well.
| Quote: | You open a bug. 24h later it is marked as a duplicate of a bug that is a) open for ages or b) was closed ages ago.
You should not hit bugs today, that were 'closed' a year ago... |
Agreed, unless it's WONTFIX (in which case there should be a good reason..) As for a) that happens a fair bit afaict, especially with portage. Nothing to stop you helping out, even if you're not a dev. Just learn python and bash if you don't know them, read the code in /usr/lib/portage and start bugfixing. |
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Carlo
Developer
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Posts: 3356
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| Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:00 pm Post subject: Re: seperate users and devs even more. Or: a rant |
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| energyman76b wrote: | | The annoying thing is, when you report a bug, and it is invalidated, because the bug wrangler don't understand the issue, or they invalidate it because of cflags - which are completly nonrelevant for sandbox errors or autoconf problems... and other stuff like that... |
You can reopen a bug, you can contact a dev directly via irc or email if necessary and if you feel repeatedly mistreated it's entirely fine to escalate by filing a bug about the dev you have a problem with. Misunderstandings and mistakes happen. You're welcome to be insistent, as long as you don't respect no other opinion than your own. Wrt issues regarding a braindead set of compiler flags etc. - at one point is end of support. No one holds you back to reproduce your problem with a valid setup and reopen a bug.
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