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i92guboj
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course, what c0d3g33k is completely right. You have no right to be "enraged" at all in any case. Gentoo devs are volunteers who sacrifice their spare time to make your life better.
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alistair
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:05 am    Post subject: Re: Anybody else out there with production Gentoo servers? Reply with quote

georgia_tech_swagger wrote:
I have a half dozen production colo servers plane flights away running Gentoo. I now have a very deep and very real fear that there will be a fork where most Devs go, or Gentoo might become defunct. If that happens, I will have to eat thousands of dollars in plane flights, man hours, and downtime flying on planes to datacenters to change servers to Debian. If this happens, I will never come back to WHERE EVER this community ends up.

Aren't there a couple of major managed hosting companies in Europe who use Gentoo? If I'm their CTO, I'm *enraged* right now.


Firstly, there won't be a fork. The only ones talking about a fork are users. None of the dev's are. ( be interesting if the users forked gentoo.... how would that work :) )

But what would be the problem with a fork anyway? What, you would have to change your rsync mirrors and distfiles mirrors? Big deal!

Anything more than that, and it wouldn't be a fork. Even if the "fork" switched to a different package manager as their default it wouldn't matter.
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steveL
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:12 am    Post subject: Re: Anybody else out there with production Gentoo servers? Reply with quote

georgia_tech_swagger wrote:
I have a half dozen production colo servers plane flights away running Gentoo. I now have a very deep and very real fear that there will be a fork where most Devs go, or Gentoo might become defunct. If that happens, I will have to eat thousands of dollars in plane flights, man hours, and downtime flying on planes to datacenters to change servers to Debian. If this happens, I will never come back to WHERE EVER this community ends up.

Wow sucks to be you ;-). What everyone else said basically, although I find it hard to believe that your datacenter people wouldn't stick a debian (or whatever) install disk in for you and bring up the host. Certainly cost a lot less financially, and environmentally.
Quote:
Aren't there a couple of major managed hosting companies in Europe who use Gentoo? If I'm their CTO, I'm *enraged* right now.

I wouldn't be. Gentoo is in fine shape. And presumably they don't have to fly halfway round the planet to get someone to install debian or CentOS or anything else on their machines.
alistair wrote:

Firstly, there won't be a fork. The only ones talking about a fork are users. None of the dev's are. ( be interesting if the users forked gentoo.... how would that work :) )

Heh maybe we should do a user overlay. Oh hang on, that's what sabayon did, and we already have sunrise. Hmm ;)
Quote:
But what would be the problem with a fork anyway? What, you would have to change your rsync mirrors and distfiles mirrors? Big deal!

Anything more than that, and it wouldn't be a fork. Even if the "fork" switched to a different package manager as their default it wouldn't matter.

++
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nixnut
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

merged above nine posts here.
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-Craig-
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 2:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I DO use Gentoo in a production environment (for about ~1 year now) and did not get into trouble (yet? ;)).

My tips:
- use "normal" cflags
- have minimal USE Flags
- use a "Test-Box" (which can be a VMWare Installation) for updates
- if the updates are ok on the "Test-Box", emerge them on the other boxes
- use a portage mirror so that every box has the same portage version
- you really want to keep your boxes' configurations the same. Don't go mad and change USE-Flags etc. on one of them.
- try your best to keep a homogenic environment; you really don't want to search for the reason why packet xy worked on all, but one of your servers...

I'd say it depends on the purpose of the system if you can use it in a production environment; if it's a simple mysql/apache/php system, it would be a good idea, BUT if you're stuck to special versions of them (because your applications does not work with newer ones), you should compile manually under /opt.
It always depends on what you want to do with your system.
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Dagger
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been using gentoo in production live environment for last year.

tips are similar as others:

- stable ARCH.
- normal CFLAGS
- minimal global USE flags. (only add USE flag when I require functionality in packages.use)
- scheduled monthly updates
- test machine for all new packages (VM for stable arch testing before updates and other other machine for insanely experimental packages - mainly SVN builds, which are hardly ever in portage anyway)
- daily configuration backups
- daily crucial data backups


In hosting datacenters I mainly use RHEL and Debian (although personally I would prefer to use Gentoo)

Gentoo isn't the easiest to maintain system ever as much depends on you, where in other (read binary) distributions this work (testing, configuring) is done by someone else.

The main advantage of Gentoo is flexibility and well "It works for me" (TM)
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Eckos
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find Gentoo to be as stable as the next distro imho. I find myself breaking a distro that uses rpm's and what else package system more than I have with Gentoo. Gentoo is more up to date with 75% maybe less or more than the other ones. And that's what matter's to most to me. I don't run a stable machine. I might run into a few problems here and there. But i'm always able to fix them with this awesome community. Try that with some other distros. Gentoo is "my rules, my way"(TM). And it gives me more comfort. Can't say that with Ubuntu or Suse.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crackytron wrote:
On our current rackspace/tdmgroup servers which I figure are CentOS or RHEL (any help in how to identify which/version etc would be brilliant),


Try this:
Code:
$ cat /etc/*release



I'm using Gentoo on a few production machines (and FreeBSD on some others). The main reason is that I absolutely dislike operating systems with expiration dates. Being able to update the system continually is very important for me.
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djinnZ
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only thing I find problematic with gentoo is the long time to full update the system after due to dependancy breaks.
By example if in an update the tiff or jpeg library will be merged on the system and I must stop cups for the time to complete the emerge world, running revdep-rebuild and re-emerging cups and ghostscript.
The easiest solution for me is to have a chroot (on a dedicated HD) to build all the needed binary packages. So I can update the system weekly or every day without any problem (but my server is not 24h for day up). Having a dedicated test machine can only be better but is not an obbige.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crackytron wrote:
This thread is a really interesting read :)

This is what I've decided to do:

RHEL Server on Rackspace that is managed and auto-updates.

3x Gentoo Virtual Servers installed on this:

- Virtual Server one: "Present"
This would be the production system, it would be booted all of the time and would contain the most current version of sites, etc.

- Virtual Server two: "Past"
This Virtual server would not be running most of the time, it would contain the last most stable configuration and would only be updated when I was SURE that "Present" was 100% stable. It would also be a fallback if "Present" broke for some reason. It would be like a redundant system.

- Virtual Server three "Future"
This is where I'd apply updates, develop sites, test ideas. When I was 95% certain this was stable, I would have mirrored onto "Present" and the copy of "Present" cloned onto "Past".
It would run most of the time but have a very small % of the server's resources. Sites on here would be ideally deployed via an SVN based deployment system (I have one that sort of works anyway).

This would mean that there was stability, capacity for testing, and a good scope of fallback should shit hit the fan.
Hackers would only be able to gain access to "Present", and they wouldn't be able to touch the actual RHEL OS. If "Present" was comprimised, I could copy "Past" onto it, do further testing of "Future" then copy future onto it.

The problems:

- I have no idea how to do this.

- I think it is a good idea but I'm not 100% sure. Is it overengineered?

- We'd need 3X the hard disk space.

- It would take a lot of work to set up.

I've heard Virtuozzo does something like this - whats the general consensus on virtual servers for a configuration like mine. Is there much performance hit to doing what I do? Also it is expensive and if there are any free alternatives that'd be awesome.


Lastly, I don't know about server-hardware much at all. If anyone could recommend whether I should order an Xeon, Opteron, SCSI vs SATA, how much RAM, sensible RAID? - I don't want to overspend and bankrupt our small company but I don't want to underspend. FYI we're going to be going with Rackspace as their support is excellent.


PS - Apologies if I'm asking too much. I know I should get proper training but I'm working for a small company and we cannot afford things like that :E

PPS - Also would it be dumb to use a server like this as an SVN repos?


May be too late. I am away from forums about a month.

That exactly same as I am doing currently.

You can done it with LVM snapshots in dom0 ... You only needto configure Xen to use LVM block instead of file and partition.

In my system, all data is shared with domU with NFS because I have many physical servers there.
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red-wolf76
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

djinnZ wrote:
The only thing I find problematic with gentoo is the long time to full update the system after due to dependancy breaks.
By example if in an update the tiff or jpeg library will be merged on the system and I must stop cups for the time to complete the emerge world, running revdep-rebuild and re-emerging cups and ghostscript.
The easiest solution for me is to have a chroot (on a dedicated HD) to build all the needed binary packages. So I can update the system weekly or every day without any problem (but my server is not 24h for day up). Having a dedicated test machine can only be better but is not an obbige.

Why do you need to stop cups while re-merging stuff? I never do that, I just restart it after everything's been done...

Another idea could be (if you can spare the diskspace) to not merge packages in a group emerge that require revdep-rebuild after each package finishes compiling, but in a big batch after everything is finished. That way, you'd keep your old system until everything is ready to be merged at once and you don't run into as many dep breaks.
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