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maczo
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Joined: 24 Oct 2006
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Location: Warsaw
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 Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 5:10 pm Post subject: Qt or GTK ? |
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Hi!
Suppose you have to keep a light (small in size) Gentoo on your hard drive.
You are using neither KDE nor Gnome, but because of dependencies it is nice to have either Qt or GTK installed.
My very general question is: "which one would you choose ?"
cheers,
m. |
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Voltago
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Joined: 02 Sep 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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| That's not a matter of choice, but a matter of applications you want to use. |
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Veldrin
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Joined: 27 Jul 2004
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Location: Zurich, Switzerland
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| Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | You are using neither KDE nor Gnome, but because of dependencies it is nice to have either Qt or GTK installed. |
It is some sort of necessity...
To keep the memory footprint small, i would go with gtk accompanied with XFCE...
On the other hand, I prefer Qt/KDE apps over (gtk/)GNOME apps. They just seem more powerful, but is has been some time since I really used GNOME. I think they improved.
(as a sidenote: I use KDE on my notebook, with as few gtk apps as possible. But I cannot live without Firefox)
cheers
V. |
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kokoko3k
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Joined: 06 May 2005
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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If i could choose an application to be qt or gtk, i would prefer it to be qt.
It is like to react smooter and faster than gtk2  |
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i92guboj
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Joined: 30 Nov 2004
Posts: 10315
Location: Córdoba (Spain)
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Veldrin wrote: | | Quote: | | You are using neither KDE nor Gnome, but because of dependencies it is nice to have either Qt or GTK installed. |
It is some sort of necessity...
To keep the memory footprint small, i would go with gtk accompanied with XFCE...
On the other hand, I prefer Qt/KDE apps over (gtk/)GNOME apps. They just seem more powerful, but is has been some time since I really used GNOME. I think they improved.
(as a sidenote: I use KDE on my notebook, with as few gtk apps as possible. But I cannot live without Firefox)
cheers
V. |
Gtk2 is not any lighter than qt. Also note that QT app is not equal to KDE app. A kde application for me is an application that links against kdelibs (which is not a crime either). All kde apps are qt apps, the opposite is not true.
To the OP, in any case, as the people already told you, it is not like you choose a toolkit based on how cool it is (well, some people do... I wonder why). You choose the applications you need to use. Sometimes you have many choices, some based on gtk, some on qt, some on command line or any other graphical toolkit. But some other times you don't have any option. If you need firefox, you need gtk, if you need k3b, you need qt.
Another thing: having both installed is not going to magically degrade the performance, against most people beliefs. If you forbid a given toolkit on your system you are just automatically discarding half of the options you have when searching for a given tool. |
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maczo
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Joined: 24 Oct 2006
Posts: 45
Location: Warsaw
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
To the OP, in any case, as the people already told you, it is not like you choose a toolkit based on how cool it is (well, some people do... I wonder why). You choose the applications you need to use. Sometimes you have many choices, some based on gtk, some on qt, some on command line or any other graphical toolkit. But some other times you don't have any option. If you need firefox, you need gtk, if you need k3b, you need qt.
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Sure, it is the best to have all  But what if you have to stick to only one of graphical lib ? Assume you are yousing Gentoo on a handheld, or sth. and you really want to save every bit. So that is my question, which one wold you choose and why - of course that would mean reducing opportunities by a factor of two :-/
| Quote: |
Another thing: having both installed is not going to magically degrade the performance, against most people beliefs. If you forbid a given toolkit on your system you are just automatically discarding half of the options you have when searching for a given tool.
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Hmm, it seems I am one of those people Having both loaded means less RAM, doesn't it ? |
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i92guboj
Bodhisattva
Joined: 30 Nov 2004
Posts: 10315
Location: Córdoba (Spain)
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| maczo wrote: | | Quote: |
To the OP, in any case, as the people already told you, it is not like you choose a toolkit based on how cool it is (well, some people do... I wonder why). You choose the applications you need to use. Sometimes you have many choices, some based on gtk, some on qt, some on command line or any other graphical toolkit. But some other times you don't have any option. If you need firefox, you need gtk, if you need k3b, you need qt.
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Sure, it is the best to have all But what if you have to stick to only one of graphical lib ? Assume you are yousing Gentoo on a handheld, or sth. and you really want to save every bit. So that is my question, which one wold you choose and why - of course that would mean reducing opportunities by a factor of two :-/ |
Is that the case?
Because in that case, you probably know what apps do you need, and the tookit they are based on In any case, the core issue remains the same: you look for a given functionality, then you choose your programs, either qt or gtk2. As I already said, gtk2 is not any lighter.
If you are really searching options for a handheld, you probably should look into qtopia, that is a real option for a device with limited resources, since it runs on top of framebuffer.
| Quote: |
| Quote: |
Another thing: having both installed is not going to magically degrade the performance, against most people beliefs. If you forbid a given toolkit on your system you are just automatically discarding half of the options you have when searching for a given tool.
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Hmm, it seems I am one of those people Having both loaded means less RAM, doesn't it ? |
Not really. A heavy gtk2 (or qt, for that matter). application will take more ram than having open two regular programs, one on qt and another in gtk2 both at the same time. In that regard, it is again the program you choose what really matter, and not the toolkits you use. For example, openoffice don't use either of them, and is a beast. And having open amarok (qt) will suck up more resources than having both dolphin (qt) and audacious (Gtk2) open.
A misscoception that many people have is that if you open a single qt program you load QT on your memory, and that is pure crap. QT, just like Gtk2, is a collection of libs. Using a qt program doesn't magically taint your system loading the whole QT bulk on your ram. Same for Gtk2.
Again and again: choose the programs you need, look for options, and keep an eye on htop, after a while, you will find which combination is better for you.
The only extra hassle of having two toolkits is storage space and compilation time, which is only important in embedded devices, and in that case you shouldn't be looking at any X based solution at all.
Just my view of the thing, anyway  |
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maczo
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Joined: 24 Oct 2006
Posts: 45
Location: Warsaw
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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Well, not yet. First I want to look around and discuss that matter, like here.
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Not really. A heavy gtk2 (or qt, for that matter). application will take more ram than having open two regular programs, one on qt and another in gtk2 both at the same time. In that regard, it is again the program you choose what really matter, and not the toolkits you use. For example, openoffice don't use either of them, and is a beast. And having open amarok (qt) will suck up more resources than having both dolphin (qt) and audacious (Gtk2) open.
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Sounds reasonable, thanks for that advice. Particularly in this case also storage matters (which will be probably limited on such a device), so still it might be better to keep either qt or gtk.
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Again and again: choose the programs you need, look for options, and keep an eye on htop, after a while, you will find which combination is better for you.
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Never heard of htop before, thanks for the tip !
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The only extra hassle of having two toolkits is storage space and compilation time, which is only important in embedded devices, and in that case you shouldn't be looking at any X based solution at all.
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I am not buying anything yet
Just checking posiibilities as said before. I would have to cross compile, etc. which I never did before, but is tempting to give a try |
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NathanZachary
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Joined: 30 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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I personally prefer QT applications for the reasons already mentioned. However, if there are some GTK applications that you like, chances are there are similar programs in QT, and vice-versa. For instance, I really like GQview, which is built on the GTK toolkit, but after looking at kde-apps.org, I found that ShowImg works quite nicely for my needs, and is built on QT.
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“Truth, like infinity, is to be forever approached but never reached.” --Jean Ayres (1972)
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Sprotte
Apprentice
Joined: 18 Oct 2004
Posts: 217
Location: Kiel, Germany
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| Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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My situation:
I run an old laptop, which is just powerful enough to run some light graphical apps, but no full-blown desktop environments. I have asked myself the same question a few times.
For a long time, these were my needs:
- a basic desktop (*box or similar)
- an image processor (this practically means "Gimp")
- a web browser (firefox, opera)
- a lightweight word processor (not OO)
- a text editor with cut&paste, and preferably tabs
Because of storage space, and to cut down on compile time, I wanted to go with maximum one of the big toolkits, either gtk2 or qt. I also wanted to use binaries wherever possible.
Since I pretty much needed Gimp, and that is gtk2, and firefox is also gtk2, as is abiword, it was an easy decision. I was going with gtk2 only, installing gimp, abiword, firefox-bin and scite for the tabbed text editor with gizmos. There are a number of other nice gtk2 apps, like an mpd client, gaim etc. For burning cds, I use the command line. I do not use any of those Gnome apps like gedit because of the dependencies. I actually have -gnome -kde in my USE flags.
I was rather happy with that, until I switched from Firefox to Opera, which is qt based. I found opera to be so much better than FF that I just had to make the change. My version of opera is hardlinked, so it brings along its own qt. But that means, practically I have both toolkits now, which kinda bugs me (or at least it bugs the gentoo-nerd, perfectionist, effeciency-freak geek inside me.)
However, I have been too lazy to come up with a new concept to completely switch to qt. I looked at the list of dependencies of some KDE apps, which was a bit scary. It's not so much QT itself, which is a nice piece of software, and isn't much bigger than gtk2. It's just I don't know what to use in place of gimp and abiword.
I have no problem with installing basic KDE libs and QT, as long as it would be a complete switch. But I'm kinda missing the options. The dependencies of KOffice are scary, and it's a bit overkill. Also, the QT side has nothing like Gimp. I don't need a fancy graphic cd burning utility, I just need a lightweight word processor and a pixel image program.
So I'm using both, because of laziness and missing alternatives. I actually like QT, and Opera is better than Firefox, but I don't see QT alternatives to the other stuff.
KDE is very much geared towards people who need graphical CD burning. It is less useful for command-line guys who just need one or two basic GUI apps. It seems for the latter, GTK is the ticket.
But Opera is just soooooo nice... |
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i92guboj
Bodhisattva
Joined: 30 Nov 2004
Posts: 10315
Location: Córdoba (Spain)
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| Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Sprotte wrote: |
However, I have been too lazy to come up with a new concept to completely switch to qt. I looked at the list of dependencies of some KDE apps, which was a bit scary. It's not so much QT itself, which is a nice piece of software, and isn't much bigger than gtk2. It's just I don't know what to use in place of gimp and abiword.
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Scribus is based in qt, It is not really a text processor, but a much more advanced program. Just try it and see if it can help you or not. It's in portage.
http://www.scribus.net/
There are also lighter things, but mostly related to latex, I don't know of any abiwork alike for qt. Well, there's kword, which you don't want.
Krita is coming to a good end, though that's part of koffice, so maybe you don't like it as a gimp replacement. I can't really compare them, but I know that krita beats gimp on some fields. The oposite is true as well. They are way too different. If what you want is a qt-gimp, that is going to be difficult. There is nothing similar.
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KDE is very much geared towards people who need graphical CD burning. It is less useful for command-line guys who just need one or two basic GUI apps. It seems for the latter, GTK is the ticket.
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Not really. IF you like command line and you use a couple of graphical tools, you will probably want to have the control over them. The kde applications are usually more complete in that regard, the gnome ones can't be controlled at all. But that is just my view. I don't use kde (nor gnome) as desktops. But if I have to use a couple of apps, I usually preffer the kde stuff. Anyway, that is just a generalization. As I said above, I just use whatever fits me best, it doesn't matter the toolkit.
The problem is that, as I said, if you want to use the best app for every task, then you must be agnostic in which regard toolkits. That is my experience. Most times, the search for alternatives is not successful. Since in most cases, it means searching gtk alternatives for k3b or konqueror and qt alternatives for gimp or firefox. Those programs might be good or bad for you, but they have no counterpart on The Other toolkit.
It is the eternal problem that has no solution for now. |
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Sprotte
Apprentice
Joined: 18 Oct 2004
Posts: 217
Location: Kiel, Germany
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| Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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| i92guboj wrote: |
Scribus is based in qt, It is not really a text processor, but a much more advanced program. Just try it and see if it can help you or not. It's in portage.
http://www.scribus.net/
There are also lighter things, but mostly related to latex, I don't know of any abiwork alike for qt. Well, there's kword, which you don't want. |
I'll look at scribus, but from what I know it's really a DTP program, right? Make frames to stick text and pictures into? That would be a bit overkill, I just need something that I can use to write a CV or a resume in. Nothing more.
I used LYX while I was in uni, for scientific write-ups, articles etc. It is based on LaTEX, which is a full blown professional layout system. But LaTEX is ... rather idiosyncratic, not lightweight at all, and geared towards users who write as part of their profession. Scientists, authors etc. I just want to write a CV... and put a pic of myself in it... and I maybe write some other very short documents for my private use... like a letter to the bank... nothing more. A WYSIWYG word processor, like Abiword, Text maker (commercial) or KWrite is what I need. I would use KWrite, but the KDE dependencies and the rest of KOffice which is dangling from its bumper are putting me off. Abiword fits the task, and I wouldn't mind something even simpler than that.
This question used to drive me nuts, I even considered to format my letters etc in HTML and print them via the web browser... eventually I grudgingly settled on abiword.
| Quote: | | Krita is coming to a good end, though that's part of koffice, so maybe you don't like it as a gimp replacement. |
I'll look at it. If KOffice can give me two usable apps, I might be more willing to put up with the cruft... I am an ex-KDE user, so I do have some idea of KOffice... Can I have KWord without having to install the other stuff?
I use gimp for very simple stuff, OK I do use layers and paths now and again, but only basic filters ... a pixel graphics program for me must have basic layer functionality, paths, draw on paths/selection, brightness, colorize, sharpen, and not much more... I admit Gimp IS overkill, especially all its filters and scripting stuff.
I do like Inkscape a lot, but it's also GTK based like Gimp :-/
| Quote: | | If what you want is a qt-gimp, that is going to be difficult. |
No, that's not even what I want. I want a graphics editor with basic middle-tier features that can produce typical image formats. Layers and paths are the most advanced things that I require.
For a text/word editor, like I said above, something that can do typical short documents with very few pictures is what's needed.
It just shouldn't have too many dependencies... compile time (updating) is precious. I would be glad if there was something lighter than Gimp/Abiword and I'm willing to use QT or whatever.
| Quote: | | IF you like command line and you use a couple of graphical tools, you will probably want to have the control over them. The kde applications are usually more complete in that regard, the gnome ones can't be controlled at all. |
I know what you mean. It's just I don't see any suitable apps. I'm probably in much the same boat as someone who wants to switch from Windows to KDE.
Konqueror is tempting. I have used it before. But finding the set of apps that a) fills my needs and b) has a bearable list of dependencies requires more effort than I can put in at the moment. I *would* probably end up with a very minimal KDE install, just a few libs, and some apps that all use those libs. But how minimal can a KDE install be? Can I get much below 100MB of dependencies? In comparison, Gimp and Abiword are small, and require no gnome libs. :-/
| Quote: | | The problem is that, as I said, if you want to use the best app for every task, then you must be agnostic in which regard toolkits. |
That is true. Well mostly. Living without QT is easier than living without GTK.
| Quote: | | In most cases, it means searching gtk alternatives for k3b or konqueror and qt alternatives for gimp or firefox. |
I wonder if I can get "half of Gimp, half of Abiword, and some basic KDE stuff, all QT, and much under 100 MB."
? |
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i92guboj
Bodhisattva
Joined: 30 Nov 2004
Posts: 10315
Location: Córdoba (Spain)
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| Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Sprotte wrote: |
I'll look at scribus, but from what I know it's really a DTP program, right? Make frames to stick text and pictures into? That would be a bit overkill, I just need something that I can use to write a CV or a resume in. Nothing more.
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I don't think that scribus will really meet your needs. The only viable alternative I know of it kword. The problem with koffice is that it is not less monolithic than openoffice. It is much lighter and smaller, but it is monolithic in the sense that if you try to install anything, the whole suitte is pulled into your system.
| Code: |
# USE="-arts xinerama" emerge -va kword krita
These are the packages that would be merged, in order:
Calculating dependencies... done!
[ebuild N ] app-office/koffice-data-1.6.3 USE="xinerama -arts -debug" 0 kB
[ebuild N ] app-office/koffice-libs-1.6.3 USE="xinerama -arts -debug -doc" 0 kB
[ebuild N ] app-office/kchart-1.6.3 USE="xinerama -arts -debug -kdeenablefinal" 0 kB
[ebuild N ] app-office/kexi-1.6.3 USE="xinerama -arts -debug -kdeenablefinal -mysql -postgres" 0 kB
[ebuild N ] app-office/krita-1.6.3 USE="xinerama -arts -debug" 0 kB
[ebuild N ] app-office/kspread-1.6.2 USE="xinerama -arts -debug" 55,713 kB
[ebuild N ] app-office/kword-1.6.3-r2 USE="xinerama -arts -debug" 0 kB
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So, if compiling times really matter, I think that you should stick to abiword, and you'll be fine. If you use mostly gtk apps and just love opera, you don't need to install qt just for that. As you say, opera has an statically linked version which works ok without qt. So, that is not a problem.
LaTEX is not for you either. If you just wanna write some letters and the like. |
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pjj
Apprentice
Joined: 30 Apr 2004
Posts: 165
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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I prefer gtk applications usually, firefox, gvim, exaile, pidgin, deluge, gimp, openoffice, evolution, vlc all are gtk based. I also use the gnome desktop but could live without it (few years back I used openbox mostly). And afaik there are more applications made with gtk then there are with qt, when I tried out KDE the last time it didn't feel that good to me, I didn't liked the looks (imo it was ugly, I know you can theme it etc but I have found more gnome/gtk themes that I like then kde/qt ones).
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Sprotte
Apprentice
Joined: 18 Oct 2004
Posts: 217
Location: Kiel, Germany
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| Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 12:12 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | app-office/kspread-1.6.2 USE="xinerama -arts -debug" 55,713 kB |
whoa now, a 55 MB spreadsheet thingie just to write some letters. ^^
Maybe I should look for a text editor with basic picture support - or maybe the HTML idea is indeed the way, writing in vim, formatting with tables, and printing from the browser... voila, word processor.
/sarcasm off
Perhaps Signum + an Atari ST emulator... |
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fldc2
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Posts: 112
Location: Motala, Sweden
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| Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Sprotte wrote: | | Quote: | | app-office/kspread-1.6.2 USE="xinerama -arts -debug" 55,713 kB |
whoa now, a 55 MB spreadsheet thingie just to write some letters. ^^
Maybe I should look for a text editor with basic picture support - or maybe the HTML idea is indeed the way, writing in vim, formatting with tables, and printing from the browser... voila, word processor.
/sarcasm off
Perhaps Signum + an Atari ST emulator... |
Not really, emerging kspread will download the entire koffice tarball and then unpack the parts needed to build kspread |
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the.ant
n00b
Joined: 26 Dec 2007
Posts: 64
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| Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for clarifying the i92guboj, it's not the toolkit which is heavy, it's the applications!
Or the packaging... for example, just wanted to give gnucash a try, alas, it depends on it's helpfile, which depend on yelp, which depends on firefox... this is ridculous! I don't mind gtk as such, I mind what the people make of it...
But to come back to the question of the OP, most applications are way too bloated, that's true, but by all means, why don't you then just stick with Latex? There are excellent classes to write letters or a CV, much better than you would get with any pointnklick program. If discspace is an issue you could even use a live-cd... |
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i92guboj
Bodhisattva
Joined: 30 Nov 2004
Posts: 10315
Location: Córdoba (Spain)
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| Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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| the.ant wrote: | Thanks for clarifying the i92guboj, it's not the toolkit which is heavy, it's the applications!
Or the packaging... |
It's the packaging. That download is for the core component, for the most part. So, the whole office suitte, is around 55 mb. That is not big, it is damn small for an office suite. The bad part if that, to get the word processor, you need the whole suite. |
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Sprotte
Apprentice
Joined: 18 Oct 2004
Posts: 217
Location: Kiel, Germany
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| Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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| LaTeX? I like it, I used it, but TeTeX alone is over 100 MB, plus kile/lyx and possibly some kde base libs, not counting qt. Abiword is 25 MB and only needs gtk. Compile time during updates etc is the issue here. I like to keep updates as painless as possible. |
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i92guboj
Bodhisattva
Joined: 30 Nov 2004
Posts: 10315
Location: Córdoba (Spain)
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| Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 12:22 am Post subject: |
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I suppose you already know this sites, but just in case 
http://qt-apps.org/
http://kde-apps.org/
The first one is about qt applications, those should only need qt, not anything that's kde related. I don't know if there is anything useful for you there, though... But it might worth a look. |
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kwalo
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Joined: 21 Feb 2007
Posts: 20
Location: Poland
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| Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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Most things I do from the command line, and for a long time I was a gtk-purist, running gtk/non-GNOME apps on GNOME/compiz desktop (freakin' cube and exploding windows are more important for me than size or speed )
I could still live without qt, but I needed Virtualbox, which is qt-based. I also installed last.fm player, which uses qt. No more qt apps are installed on my system. Actually I have qt only because I needed virtualbox, as qemu is not good enough for me and there's no gtk-based virtualbox, or vmware equivalent.
It's harder to find gtk app without qt equivalent, so it should be easier to live without gtk. However, most of qt apps belong to KDE, so using only qt apps implies running at lest minimal KDE. This can be smaller (in RAM, not in disk size) than some lightweight WM with mixture of qt and gtk apps. That's because KDE apps share a lot of code through kde-libs. Running Konqueror, or Opera instead of Firefox and Krita, instead of Gimp could be a problem for some people. Also most GUI apps written by commercial companies are in QT. Take last.fm, virtualbox, or Opera for example.
Conclusions:
It is possible to live with gtk-only apps, although sometimes you are "forced" to use CLI-only programs, as there are no gtk-equivalents for qt-apps.
If you find at least one qt app you can't live without, install minimal KDE and you could easily survive without gtk. Not counting Firefox and GIMP. |
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Desktop Environments
