Problems at Gentoo Discussion

Slalomsk8er · Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:49 pm Post subject: Problems at Gentoo Discussion

As promised in my post https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-4721372.html#4721372 at Should the Gentoo trustees accept Daniel Robbins offer?, here is a thread to discuss the problems, there history and possible solutions and refine it in to the wiki page at http://gentoo-wiki.com/Problems_at_Gentoo.

Let the dance begin.

Ps: mods can I have 2 or more of your eyes as it could be getting hot in here - thanks.

think4urs11 · Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:01 pm Post subject: Re: Problems at Gentoo Discussion

AllenJB · Veteran Joined: 02 Sep 2005 Posts: 1285

Please keep discussions off the wiki - it's for documentation, not community discussions. See my post in the Daniel Robbins thread for further comments.

There used to be a specific forum for discussion of things people thought could be done to improve Gentoo - the userreps project forum. Unfortunately it wasn't used that much and the userreps project died for various reasons and the forum was removed (all its posts were moved to the chat forum). However, there is still its parent project, userrel to help fullfill this function.

Slalomsk8er · Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:26 pm Post subject:

bmichaelsen · Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:40 pm Post subject:

Problem: Devs, Timelines and Communication
why the problem exists: gentoo's leadership is lead by devs selected by devs. Those leader tend to have great technical merit but often lack in organisational skills (timelines, priorities). This sometimes results in taking no (visible) action until a near perfect solution is produced. This is a good for the long therm design of systems, but sometimes a using a "good enough" solution is better than none or a near perfect solution that arrives much later.
proposed solution: seperate the technical leadership from the organisational. Trustees, PR, DevRel, UserRel face tasks that are no good match for the skillset of an average gentoo dev geek (no offensive, I am not too well suited either). (see https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-4718339.html#4718339 for the origin of the idea).

Starting points for gentoo:
Donnie Berkholz, gentoo dev himself, blogged some awesome stuff about leadership and project management
Agile Project Management: This book (or some equivalent) should be a required read for anyone taking a any leadership position in gentoo.

Slalomsk8er · Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:52 pm Post subject:

Thank you bmichaelsen this is a good point I in my view and offers the question if we need to handle meta problems in the wiki as this could be seen as a source of the current crisis about the foundation.

Does any one have an idea how to handle meta problems and there sup problems in therms of structure and presentation in the frame of a wiki?

Nerdanel · Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 3:47 pm Post subject:

Now the stickied discussion thread is locked - just as I was about to post to it...

I saw on the wiki page that revdep-rebuild is "broken". Does that mean broken-broken or just that it's strange that such an essential script is not installed by default and not run automatically when needed, such as in the notorious expat case?

AllenJB · Veteran Joined: 02 Sep 2005 Posts: 1285

seesaw · n00b Joined: 13 Jan 2008 Posts: 1

Problem: User frustration at the recent developments in Gentoo management
Why the problem exists: There's no alternative to the current Gentoo
Proposed solution: Fork it ASAP

AllenJB · Veteran Joined: 02 Sep 2005 Posts: 1285

ps · n00b Joined: 11 Jan 2008 Posts: 31 Location: /usr/portage

astinus · Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 3:59 pm Post subject:

Slalomsk8er · Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 4:02 pm Post subject:

bmichaelsen · Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 4:34 pm Post subject:

Things like:
- revdep-rebuild
- the libexpat issue combined with no 2007.1
- http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc61/lolgentoo/gentoo-motivator.jpg,
- no GWN without further notice at all
- PR lead "AWOL" (quote: gentoo-dev mailing list)
- Devs with major projects (OpenRC, Seeds) leaving gentoo
- Stalemates and endless dereferrals on fundamental issues like EAPI/PMS

are just symptoms. Its more important to find the reason for these and fix those.
The symptoms do not really need to get discussed here, if someone has an idea, join those projects, and help there.

Ibn al-Hazardous · Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 4:39 pm Post subject:

Problem: Developers are retiring faster than they respawn
Why the problem exists: No definitive answer at this point.
Proposed solution: Greater care taken of potential devs (currently users). More suggestions appreciated.

Explanation: During the last three weeks only two new devs have joined. During the same time 19 devs have retired (according to this bugzilla search for the time period, I counted only the FIXED bugs). That's an outflow of 17 devs, and if it continues at this rate, it's pretty alarming.
_________________
/Ibn

Old School · Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 4:41 pm Post subject:

Let me start off by stating the following is not a criticism of anyone, especially the Dev's. You all have my utmost respect for the work you do.
Gentoo needs leadership. Someone that has the plaque on their desk that states, "The Buck Stops Here." Running an organization like this by committee, ends up as nothing more than a circle jerk. What Gentoo has been lacking is a unity of purpose and direction. I think we know what 90% of the community would like to see happen. In one word: drobbins.
_________________
www.otw20.com

The further a society drifts from truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.
George Orwell

Slalomsk8er · Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 4:46 pm Post subject:

Ibn al-Hazardous · Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 4:48 pm Post subject:

bmichaelsen · Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 5:02 pm Post subject:

kernelOfTruth · Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 5:22 pm Post subject:

Problem: unfriendly devs/people / socially unqualified devs/people
Why the problem exists: ???
Proposed solution: create a new codex for devs / people in general who want to work @gentoo and enforce it (we need a leader / council for that: in one word: drobbins (?))
_________________
https://github.com/kernelOfTruth/ZFS-for-SystemRescueCD/tree/ZFS-for-SysRescCD-4.9.0
https://github.com/kernelOfTruth/pulseaudio-equalizer-ladspa

Hardcore Gentoo Linux user since 2004

bunder · Bodhisattva Joined: 10 Apr 2004 Posts: 5937

Old School · Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 5:30 pm Post subject:

ps · n00b Joined: 11 Jan 2008 Posts: 31 Location: /usr/portage

jonnevers · Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 6:06 pm Post subject:

Problem: Users like those posting in this thread and editing that wiki
Why the problem exists: distorted self-entitlement, maybe? an inflated sense of self-worth.
Proposed solution: have them shut their traps and dig in and actually fix issues instead of..... the same old same old.

Nerdanel · Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 6:19 pm Post subject:

Why I think there aren't enough new developers:

Gentoo devs appear a secretive group that looks down on Gentoo's (often highly computer literate, to the point of being devs themselves elsewhere) normal users instead of being welcoming and tolerant of newbie errors. This makes potential devs feel that they are not wanted and/or would not belong.

That's the appearance from the outside anyway and not meant to refer to any particular person. At one point a couple of years ago I entertained for a short while a thought that I might become a Gentoo dev but decided against it. Now I'm committed to a completely different project.