Gentoo installer.

davoid · Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2002 12:32 am Post subject: Gentoo installer.

Hello there fellow Gentoo users!

My name is Faust and I've been a Gentoo enthusiast and supporter for a couple months now. I won't go into stuff such as "how gentoo revolutionized my life", but more like "how Gentoo can be improved". The ideas expressed in this post are solely mine, I am not talking for anybody else. You are free to express yourself only after reading my whole post, as to make things easier on each and everyone of us.

First off you have to agree that what makes a Linux distribution is TWO things, mainly. One of them and probably of them is package managment. portage is great, it's being worked on everyday, it's becoming better. (good job drobbins

)We have to admit that us using gentoo is mainly because of portage being innovative (well.. in a way) and very useful, or maybe we like the Gentoo policy.

The second thing that makes a Linux distribution is its Installer. It is the first impression the user has of it, it decides WHO can use the distribution or not. Now don't come and say "you have to be a hacker to install gentoo" because it is not true. Most of you are new to UNIX and are running gentoo. (this is due to two things: good installation documentation and very good package system).

Let's leave Gentoo for a second and take a look at other distributions and how they do these two things.

Debian has a relatively complicated installation, BUT it's apt-get tools is very mature and usable. Makes debian not-so popular because users are scared of installer.
Redhat has an excellent installation system allowing unattended instalation among others, but its packaging system is.. well... a failure IMO (compared to debian). The system is easily installed. Anybody can fire up Mozilla and check their hotmail inbox in less than an hour on a modern system. And this including reading the manuals.

Now back at gentoo. We already have portage, it's great, tested and true. Installer is non existant for the moment. Most computer users are scared of console commands therefore stay away from Gentoo. It also gives a bad impression in Install fests or when people have the first contact with Gentoo, such as in an Enterprise when the boss is there and the sysadmin shows his ideas. In order to have a bigger user base (more action going on, have gentoo be used worldwide and supported) we need a working installer, why not similar to redhat's since it _is_ excellent, IMO.

Reality is reality. Most users do _not_ want to read and execute each of those steps listed in the excellent gentoo documentation because they don't have the time or simply don't care about the nitty-gritty details. They want that mozilla and evolution running.. they don't care about networking and stuff like that. This type of users is the most numerous of all. The number of users who don't care about `ls' and `rm' exceedes by _far_ the number of users who actually write their own mail client in their favourite programming language. Just think at the number of Win/Mac users in the world compared to the number of UNIX enthusiasts...

Of course, now you can start talking about other distributions and rant... It is not the place. If you do want to rant I'd suggest you do not post in this thread

Else I will have to slap you with a 50lB Unix manual.

The reason why I am posting this is because I am working on an installation system similar and based on redhat's anaconda myself and am aided by some people. I am personally stunned after seeing all the negative replies in the previous (locked) discussion. I need to know what users think, but guys, try to keep it on topic... Stuff such as "why doesn't grub work" really is annoying...

If you like to send private comments/suggestions, I am open to listen to you. Use the buttons at the bottom of my post to reach me.

Thanks for your time!
davoid.
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At first they laugh at you, then they ignore you then they fight you and then you win. --Gandhi

pjp · Administrator Joined: 16 Apr 2002 Posts: 20529

This has kind of been beaten to death here.
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davoid · Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2002 1:07 am Post subject:

delta407 · Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2002 2:12 am Post subject: Re: Gentoo installer.

davoid · Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2002 2:36 am Post subject:

Dear delta407,

I am honestly surprised to see such energy in your reply. But it seems that this quality of yours does not go without your inability to properly read what there is to read

Let me put it this way: if people all thought the way you do we would all still be using CPM.

Flexibility is power. Like the martial arts master's nifty moves or ability to change one's mind after a discussion: these are results of flexibliity. What I thought is simple: add more flexibility to Gentoo

<blurb>

Gentoo requires use of the nitty gritty details, since only you can tell it to do what you want

no, gentoo des not require you knowing nothing much. Well yeah, if you call _reading_ a special skill, then you are right. Gentoo is not rocket science nor probalistic computing

It's all about emerge --help (once it's set up)

Well, you're screwed unless you know your IP, netmask, gateway, and DNS server.

there are ways for making it easier on the user.

Then let them use Win/Mac.

what if they want to change? should we not give everybody the occasion to try gentoo out? I mean I understand you like Gentoo a lot...

Right, this thread should not exist. You are aware of the previous post yet you post again anyway. This thread ought to be locked.

again, you do not know how to read. The replies on the last thread were very negative as to gentoo should have its own installer and I thought it may be a problem in the way the problem was posed. For the third time in your message you do not want to share with others.

Use RedHat. Up to date documentation, decent package management, good corporate impression, and excellent tech support. Gentoo is lean, fast, powerful, and flexible -- the installation process is lean, fast, powerful, and flexible. It's a good match.

can't you see how confused you are? Gentoo has up to date docs, excellent packaging system, very good impression (unless you don't read articles about gentoo), AND excellent tech support. Whatever keeps gentoo from being as used as redhat is an excellent installer to let experts share their knowledge with newer users

Once again, I appreciate the energy with which you replied

Thanks for your time!
_________________
At first they laugh at you, then they ignore you then they fight you and then you win. --Gandhi

abhishek · Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2002 2:38 am Post subject:

I find the gentoo installer(or really no installer) the easist and best. I konw whats going on wih it and how i can do wahtwver i want easily. With redhat's installer, i had to hope it would load my nic right, and id have no control over it. All u need to install with the current system is minimal console skills. Ther'es no point in making it hard.

WaMan · Tux's lil' helper Joined: 28 Jun 2002 Posts: 96

IMO I think Gentoo should have a graphical installer similar to that of Redhat's. I love the configurability of Gentoo, which is why I switched to it. And I also enjoy configuring the nitty gritty details of my system. However, sometimes I'm in a rush and I want to get a system up and running quickly with X and ALSA working.

For this reason, I think that Gentoo should have a graphical installer _and_ a binary install option. It would be great to get a Gentoo system up and running in less than an hour and re-emerge from source (w/ optimizations) when time permits.

Of course, there should always be an option to do a command-line install; just as the Redhat installer permits.

I get the impression that most people who argue against an installer are just being highbrows. Even if a graphical intall permits more newbie users, it doesn't take away from the quality and innovation of Gentoo.

Cheers

delta407 · Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2002 3:18 am Post subject:

Robert · Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2002 4:21 am Post subject:

How about we make Gentoo install by using a single mouse click which brings up images of nature scenery and euphoric sound effects (to cover the ever unpopular and inherrently evil console). Then when its all done you'll have a system w/ the latest version of IE pre-loaded with all the most popular |33t h4ax0r bookmarks, reducing the chances of having to type in urls in to the ever cumbersome address bar ;) We can call it GenHat Lindows !

Really.. all sacrasm aside, the lack of GUI installer sits well IMHO with the rest of the Gentoo approach. Redhat/Mandrake type distros seem to work hard at making things "easy" for the newer users. IMHO these distros leave a huge void... one that Gentoo fills quite nicely;) I say, if you want to point-n-click your way to working sound, X, Mozilla, etc.. then install any number of distros out there. If thats not what your looking for, then Gentoo is here as an alternative. Just ask Larry the cow ;)

--
Robert Brown

fghellar · Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2002 4:44 am Post subject: Re: Gentoo installer.

FINITE · Guru Joined: 10 May 2002 Posts: 449

Ok, a gui installer is a GOOD idea but it should be very minimal. It should only do the things that you have to do manually with the stage1 tar. For example it should not have the option to install a WM or DE. It should not include an browsers or other utilities/software. Again I stress that it should only get you to the same point of the instal that completing he stage1 does. It should be well layed out and easy to understand of course. Beyond this I see nothing else that should be done for a gui installer. My 2 cents.

lain iwakura · Apprentice Joined: 09 May 2002 Posts: 176 Location: sd, ca

DArtagnan · Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2002 7:15 am Post subject: Re: Gentoo installer.

ElCondor · Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2002 10:25 am Post subject:

as already stated in the mentioned thread: if someone has time left and nothing more helpful to do for gentoo, he might take a thought about a better "installer" - but building more ebuilds or keeping important ones up2date seems much more important to me.

either you install gentoo once on every machine and keep updating for (hopefully) years without new installation, there's no need to have an installer. and if you install it on many machines: once you know how to do it you are quite fast the way it is

or someone isn't (intellectually) able to follow the installation how-to .. well, how will he be using linux anyway? :twisted:

* ElCondor pasa *
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Here I am the victim of my own choices and I'm just starting!

DArtagnan · Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2002 10:28 am Post subject:

klieber · Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2002 2:17 pm Post subject:

Moving this thread to Gentoo Suggestions. It has already been flogged to death, as kanuslupus pointed out. I'm not sure I see the difference between this thread and the other one?

--kurt
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The problem with political jokes is that they get elected

handsomepete · Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2002 2:21 pm Post subject:

I've held out on this debate for a while, so I hope this doesn't turn into a rant. Personally, I prefer the current install.

That being said, the inevitable 'split' of the bleeding edge Gentoo and the stable/server Gentoo would be a very easy way to differentiate who gets a graphical install and who doesn't. If both will be freely available, it would be trivial for someone who wants a graphical install to download stable-Gentoo and unmask whatever stable protections they put in to convert it to bleeding edge. Vice versa - for admins that want stable/server but want a text install it shouldn't be a pain to include that as an *option* (as stated above and a hundred million other times both here and on /. comments). BleedingEdge-Gentoo should default to the current 16mb ISO install. Period. (which to me isn't even really an install... it's all done in more or less the same way you use your system everyday with some extra setup/config type things. As far as I'm concerned it's just the first time you use Gentoo.). This makes perfect sense to me.

I think the most important thing to keep in mind is that Linux should be accessible to the masses. I'll agree with both delta407 and davoid in that yes, Gentoo is heavier on knowledge requirements than other distros, but all you *really* have to be able to do to _install_ is read and follow directions. Honestly. Should all shiny new Linux newbies use Gentoo? Probably not. But there's absolutely no harm in making it slightly more accesible as long as it doesn't distort what the current userbase started using it for in the first place (and the concept and vision behind the distro). If they install it easily but can't handle it, they'll move on to another distro. Once they're experienced they'll start craving something more flexible and powerful than Red Hat or Mandrake and they'll come back. And to be perfectly honest, after the past week of Terrible Microsoft Things (Palladium/DRM, Windows Media Player/DRM, shutting down Mame-X (before I could download it

, etc.), I hope that the Linux userbase has a massive growth spurt.

Anyhoo, just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Shoot, this did turn into a rant.

klieber · Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2002 2:47 pm Post subject:

klieber · Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2002 2:48 pm Post subject:

Folks, at the request of Davoid, I'm locking this thread. This topic has been kicked around significantly and there are no new ideas being discussed here.

--kurt
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The problem with political jokes is that they get elected