Gentoo newbie checking in

[Frogprince]

Hi,

I've been wanting to do this for as long as I've been using Linux (two years now) and I've eventually decided to take the plunge. To be honest, I'm excited about the prospect but a little nervous! I have tried a number of Linux distributions, each one a little more difficult than the previous one. I've found that with every increase in difficulty has come an increase in OS performance, personal satisfaction and learning. Right now I'm using Archlinux, which is very impressive indeed, and I'm looking forward to seeing how it compares with Gentoo. Installing Gentoo will probably mark the summit of my distro-hopping and I will then have to make a choice as to which distro I want to use.
I haven't actually started the Gentoo install yet. Right now I'm reading the manual page by page. I reckon I'll be ready to begin in about two weeks. Any last minute advice would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks

[gerard27]

Hi Frogprince,
Welcome to Gentoo.
Do a CLI install!
Forget the livecd/dvd.
Gerard.
_________________
To install Gentoo I use sysrescuecd.Based on Gentoo,has firefox to browse Gentoo docs and mc to browse (and edit) files.
The same disk can be used for 32 and 64 bit installs.
You can follow the Handbook verbatim.
http://www.sysresccd.org/Download

[Frogprince]

Thanks for the advice! Should I install the 2008 version, still in Beta, or 2007? I guess that as Gentoo is a rolling distro it'd be easy to update 2007 to 2008. Is this correct?

[asturm]

Welcome, I'm sure you'll enjoy Gentoo.

As long as 2008.0 isn't released, I'd suggest using the SystemRescueCD (based on Gentoo, but up-to-date other than 2007.0 minimal-cd) together with funtoo stage3 tarballs (same here, up-to-date which'll save compile-time and spare you from various problems with 2007.0).

But of course you might as well try out 2008.0-beta2.

[OmSai]

[asturm]

Well, there IS a notable difference between 2007.0 and 2008.0 in that the former installation medium won't recognize too modern hardware components.

[neysx]

[NeddySeagoon]

Frogprince,

Gentoo does not have versions but Gentoo installers do. You don't need a Gentoo CD to install Gentoo.
Any bootable CD that provides a few basic tools is all thats needed.

Gentoo itself is versionless because Gentoo is a toolkit that allows you to make your own distro.
That means that everyones Gentoo is different.
Also, after you have done

[termite]

I used 2008.0beta 2 to install on my new thinkpad a few days ago. No hitches. Use it.

[Frogprince]

Thank you all very much for your replies. I'd like to know more about how Gentoo handles software compilation. One of the things I've noticed in the Archlinux community is that there are a lot of ex-Gentoo users who changed to that distro because they got fed up compiling. Now, I know that Gentoo isn't a binary distribution, and that that is probably the key to its power, but just how much compiling do you have to do? I mean, once you've compiled your programs, do you have to go through the compilation process every time you want to update the system or an individual application? Does the computer find itself permanently turned on forever compiling? And do you compile absolutely everything - even apps like Firefox and Thuderbird, or are there some things that people don't generally compile? Sorry if this all sounds very newbie, but I want to know what I'm getting myself in for and I haven't been able to find this information in Google.

[gerard27]

Yes,most programs have to be compiled.
Some are available both as source and as binary.
Firefox/Thunderbird, OpenOffice and a few others.
If you have a recent computer it takes a reasonable amount of time.
Of course this is a matter of personal taste.
To give you an idea:
My box:
Intel core2duo 2.4GHz
4GB Ram
It takes about 12 hours to re-compile ~700 packages.
This includes OpenOffice from source.
I joined Gentoo after having used Slackware,Red-Hat,Suse etc. and got
competely hooked since.
Gerard.
_________________
To install Gentoo I use sysrescuecd.Based on Gentoo,has firefox to browse Gentoo docs and mc to browse (and edit) files.
The same disk can be used for 32 and 64 bit installs.
You can follow the Handbook verbatim.
http://www.sysresccd.org/Download

[Frogprince]

When you say re-compile, does that mean we're talking about updates here? Can't you simply patch the apps that need to be updated, or do you have to start from scratch every time?

[gerard27]

No.
Updates will concern just a few packages,unless you didn't update for a long period.
Sometimes you get your system damaged or you think it is.
Then

[floffe]

In general, if package X is updated and you have it installed, it will need to be recompiled to be upgraded (unless it's a binary package of course).

[Frogprince]

I guess my machine has pretty average specs: 750 Mb RAM, clocking in at 2.6 GHz. I compile my own kernels right now, and that takes me around 3 hours, so I guess that makes running Gentoo satisfactorily a realistic prospect. The longest thing to compile would no doubt be Openoffice. How long can I expect that to take?
Archlinux uses a lightened version of Kde called Kdemod, which is very fast indeed. Does such a thing exist in Gentoo?

Thanks for your help, guys. I'm starting to see more clearly now what's involved; and so far I like what I see.

[muhsinzubeir]

may be u can try openoffice-bin...then less compile time..
_________________
~x86
p5k-se
Intel Core 2 Duo
Nvidia GT200
http://www.zanbytes.com

[Frogprince]

Yes, I was wondering about this. But if compiling improves performance, I'm prepared to compile OpenOffice. It's one of the apps I'd most like to see speeded up: the launch time is really too slow.

[Sprotte]

You should have no problems running Gentoo with your machine.

Updating packages means recompiling, yes. For some bigger packages, precompiled binaries exist (firefox-bin, openoffice etc.) I would just use those. Compiling smaller packages during an update is a non-issue. Things like gcc and glibc normally take longest. Most people leave their updates compiling overnight while they sleep. You are not required to watch all the time By the way, 3 hours for kernel compiling on your machine seems awfully slow, that's not normal.

Compiling a package yourself might slightly improve its performance, but you shouldn't expect miracles. If you think OO is too slow, the better alternative might be to not use OO, if possible.

If you want to reduce compiling time, use a light desktop (fluxbox etc) and binary packages for firefox etc. Perhaps use abiword, gnumeric and such in place of openoffice (if you can) and use CLI (textmode) apps for music/video/irc/chat/email.

[muhsinzubeir]

most ppl think gentoo is faster...but in my personal opinion i disagree with that ....may be stability could be true....unless we do benchmark test to proove that gentoo beats other distro than i can agree....The most advantage of using gentoo is having a complete freedom to do what you want without facing oversimplifications....this goes in terms of a total control ...for instance in gentoo if you dont want mysql support you just dont put that flag in your system, en you can do that per package that you want to compile...this freedom is the most advantage of gentoo machine not to mention tht you build your own kernel ...ASFAIK being capable of customizing every single package means less code running on your machine, which brings the point of stability...Another major advantage of gentoo is a learning platform, becoz its not oversimplified it will just makes u google or ask till u understands how it work...those are the major things i prefer gentoo than something else.

I do love gentoo, but i wont be so optimistic that by putting flags en compiling a source code will lead to tremendous speed improvement....forgive me if you think otherwise or if you think im disappointing new users.But I think that this should be made clear when we recommend gentoo to someone....
_________________
~x86
p5k-se
Intel Core 2 Duo
Nvidia GT200
http://www.zanbytes.com

[asturm]

Well there are benchmarks: https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-647459-highlight-benchmark.html

With desktop usage this mostly translates into the subjective feeling of 'this Gentoo system feels faster than <insert binary-distro of choice>'. I made that experience, having used only SuSE before. I don't think that it is about CFLAGS, though.

However I don't use Gentoo because of speed - I use it because of its beauty and elegance.

[Frogprince]

My desire to use Gentoo isn't so much based on its speed, but because it's THE distro for anyone with some Linux experience who wants to learn more. Besides, I think that any Linux enthusiast who hasn't tried using it, even if (s)he decides to switch back to something else in the end, has had an incomplete Linux experience, in the same way that they would have a gaping hole in their Linux CV if they hadn't ever tried Debian. Also, I do like the idea of control, as much of a headache as that can be at first, and no distro gives you more control than Gentoo. My other reason for wanting to try Gentoo is the community, which is reputed to be one of the finest. Judging by the number and quality of the replies I've had here on my very newbie questions, I can certainly confirm that this is true.
However, speed does matter to me, and using Archlinux has shown me that I appreciate something zippy. I did an experiment the other day and timed the launch of Openoffice in Archlinux and then in Debian (both in Fluxbox): Archlinux took 4 seconds; Debian (hardly a slow distro) took 6. I'm guessing that Gentoo would at least perform equally well as Archlinux, and genstorm's linky does support that guess. It's not just a question of impressing my Windows-user friends and family (although I admit that that is one of my motivations ), but it's also because faster distros have a lower CPU load, which makes for more stability and reliability.
Talking of speed, I've looked into installing kdemod http://kdemod.ath.cx/ in Gentoo and it appears to be possible. Does anyone know how to do this? I'm a bit worried about those flags. If I installed regular Kde (and I'll be installing Fluxbox too), would I need to re-compile everything after installing Kdemod? I ask the question because Kdemod uses a different version of qt than Kde; and there may be other dependencies that could also be affected.

[asturm]

In Gentoo we don't need kdemod - we have split ebuilds where you can pick just which KDE packages you want, or need.

[OmSai]

[Dammital]

Frogprince ought to do okay with his system. The desktop I'm typing this on is a doggy 350MHz P-II machine with 384K memory. It takes about a day and a half to compile openoffice on this thing! But it stays on all the time anyway, doing other stuff in the background while I'm not around, so I don't really care if it also is compiling.

And it's not like I spend all that much time emerging packages anyway. Once a week I do:

[Frogprince]

Thank you all very much for your replies, guys. I can see more clearly now what's involved. I'm going to download the system rescue CD and get the funtoo stage 3 tarballs. I have decided to compile everything, except Firebox and Thunderbird as they often require updates and that could be a pain to re-compile. I haven't decided about Openoffice yet, but as it doesn't update very frequently I might compile that too. Unfortunately, I cannot use an alternative to Openoffice like Abiword because all my courses are in .odt, and when I open them with Abiword I find that it has run amok with all my carefully positioned diagrammes and tablles! I might consider installing Oxygenoffice instead of compiling Openoffice, as its supposed to be much faster and apparently has many features lacking in Openoffice.
Sprotte has indicated that the compile time for the custom kernel I build for Debian is too long, which suggests to me that I load too many modules when I do this. I need to look carefully at this and see what I can leave out. I might be starting new threads about this one soon. Also, there are many things in your replies that I don't fully understand, which shows that I need to do a little more reading before I actually get stuck in.
As for the Desktop environment, I'm not a fan of Eyecandy, so I'll be installing Fluxbox for myself; but my wife doesn't like Fluxbox so I need something a little more intuitive for her. I'm wondering about Gnome. It's slightly lighter than Kde, which I find really too bloated. However, there are Kde apps that I'll definitely want, like K3b and Amarok. And I don't like Nautilus (as I can't stand the way it opens a new window every time you move onto a different directory), I'd prefer Konqueror or Dolphin. I'm not sure what I should do about flags in this case. Do I need to set them for Kde, even if I just install a handful of Kde applications?

Thanks once again.