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rlarkin
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Joined: 17 Aug 2007
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 Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 10:07 pm Post subject: My complaint |
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I posted a gripe in another thread (re kde split/monolithic ebuilds):
| Quote: | I remember when Gentoo was a "meta" distribution and these kinds of decisions weren't made for me (loved it). And while I get that this is not a split/monolithic thread, someone said "It's been discussed" , and I can't let that go.
It has not. It was "decided". I remember being invited to IRC by a kde dev to "discuss" - I was 100% ignored (as in the dev who invited me refused to reply to even one statement), that's not a discussion, and any threads here on the topic boil down to "It's the gentoo way!" (polite way to say 'devs choice!'). Whatever, fine, I'll either have time to maintain my own overlay or I won't, but please don't say it was "discussed" as if devs aren't just going to do what they want anyway. |
There was a response:
rlarkin wrote:
| Quote: | | I remember when Gentoo was a "meta" distribution and these kinds of decisions weren't made for me (loved it). And while I get that this is not a split/monolithic thread, someone said "It's been discussed" , and I can't let that go. |
'Meta' distribution does not in any way mean that it's You who decide how ebuilds are written and which ones will go into main tree. It means only that You get tools to build a very customized system.
rlarkin wrote:
| Quote: | | It has not. It was "decided". |
Are You one of gentoo devs to decide about that?
rlarkin wrote:
| Quote: | | I remember being invited to IRC by a kde dev to "discuss" - I was 100% ignored (as in the dev who invited me refused to reply to even one statement), that's not a discussion, and any threads here on the topic boil down to "It's the gentoo way!" (polite way to say 'devs choice!'). |
Being invited does not mean that You get to decide, devs can do what ever they want, even ignore You. Don't like it, do Your own distribution and wait for people to start complaining like You do now. You can't make everyone happy.
Now, I'm not responding in that same thread, but I am pretty steamed about this attitude of take it or leave it.
1)META distribution means that the decisions a typical distro makes ARE NOT MADE FOR ME. Customizations are OPTIONS, not DEFAULTS.
2)When someone tells me specifically to come into IRC to DISCUSS something and then completely ignores me, that's just rude, and that someone else thinks having an @gentoo email address excuses rudeness is indicative of a bigger problem.
3)The most honest reason I have heard from any dev regarding the split/monolithic ebuilds is (quote verbatim)"None of the KDE devs use monolithic ebuilds anyway."
And there you have it. | Quote: | | devs can do what ever they want, even ignore You |
DEVS CAN DO WHATEVER THEY WANT. We drop monolithic ebuilds and default to the customization of split ebuilds because none of the devs use the monolithic ebuilds.
The attitude of the person who initially responded to me illustrates a problem thats pervasive here. (some) DEVS are here to scratch their own itch, and way too many people in the community tolerate it. Get this, when you're here with a "service" attitude and you're a true volunteer you deserve much respect ( I know who some, but not all of you are ), but if you think it's okay to force your customizations onto my application mostly because that's your preference, then blow me, you've scratched your itch, Gentoo's the way you want it, that's thanks enough for you. Don't act like I owe you something, I owe you jack.
Last: to the persons who will almost certainly respond ( even just in your own mind ) with something like "Leave then, GTFO if you don't like it." No, I won't. I'll make my own overlay KDE (which I'll share if it doesn't suck), I'll continue to help the couple dozen gentoo users that I support, I'll continue to use Gentoo, and I will also feel free to decide for myself what I like and don't like and sometimes even speak up about it in forums (what am I on my second public complaint this 6 years?). So, if you think it's inappropriate for me say "somethings wrong with how things are done here", you GTFO. I'm not going anywhere. |
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AllenJB
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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The above post was confusing until I found the post to which this is a reply. I'll post it here as it clarifies exactly what rlarkin has added.
Reply to thread "KDE 4.1 Portage" in "Unsupported Software":
| prymitive wrote: | | rlarkin wrote: |
I remember when Gentoo was a "meta" distribution and these kinds of decisions weren't made for me (loved it). And while I get that this is not a split/monolithic thread, someone said "It's been discussed" , and I can't let that go.
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'Meta' distribution does not in any way mean that it's You who decide how ebuilds are written and which ones will go into main tree. It means only that You get tools to build a very customized system.
| rlarkin wrote: |
It has not. It was "decided".
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Are You one of gentoo devs to decide about that?
| rlarkin wrote: |
I remember being invited to IRC by a kde dev to "discuss" - I was 100% ignored (as in the dev who invited me refused to reply to even one statement), that's not a discussion, and any threads here on the topic boil down to "It's the gentoo way!" (polite way to say 'devs choice!').
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Being invited does not mean that You get to decide, devs can do what ever they want, even ignore You. Don't like it, do Your own distribution and wait for people to start complaining like You do now. You can't make everyone happy. |
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AllenJB
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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And now for my reply (requoted):
| rlarkin wrote: | | The attitude of the person who initially responded to me illustrates a problem thats pervasive here. (some) DEVS are here to scratch their own itch, and way too many people in the community tolerate it. Get this, when you're here with a "service" attitude and you're a true volunteer you deserve much respect ( I know who some, but not all of you are ), but if you think it's okay to force your customizations onto my application mostly because that's your preference, then blow me, you've scratched your itch, Gentoo's the way you want it, that's thanks enough for you. Don't act like I owe you something, I owe you jack. |
And what exactly do you want to do instead? The Open Source movement was created by people scratching their own itches. People who contribute code they've written because they wanted it. Are you going to (try to) force these unpaid volunteers who donate their free time to do what you want to do instead? It won't work. Show me a single project that has unpaid developers who are forced to work on specific tasks.
...I bet you won't find a single one.
| rlarkin wrote: | | Last: to the persons who will almost certainly respond ( even just in your own mind ) with something like "Leave then, GTFO if you don't like it." No, I won't. I'll make my own overlay KDE (which I'll share if it doesn't suck), I'll continue to help the couple dozen gentoo users that I support, I'll continue to use Gentoo, and I will also feel free to decide for myself what I like and don't like and sometimes even speak up about it in forums (what am I on my second public complaint this 6 years?). So, if you think it's inappropriate for me say "somethings wrong with how things are done here", you GTFO. I'm not going anywhere. |
Ah, so you're going to volunteer your time to work on a project that scratches your itch. STOP THAT! By your standards you must instead work your way through the bugs in bugzilla in numerical order until all are done. Only once you've scratched everybody elses itches can you start on the work you want to do.
What's that? You won't do that? Why on earth not? It's exactly what you've just told us you expect the developers to do! |
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rlarkin
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:39 am Post subject: |
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Thanks JBAllen for the formatting, it is much better.
I'm okay with most all of the points you make, but I see a distinction between someone who creates something for himself and decides to share it, and someone who volunteers to serve a community. The first is a contribution, the second is a service. When I used to teach as a volunteer I taught the the lessons chosen by the community I volunteered to serve in their chosen format. They were grateful for my time.
If I am successful with a KDE overlay and share it that is not the same thing as making a commitment to a community.
The root of my dissatisfaction is that the split ebuilds run contrary to the meta aspects of Gentoo that attracted me here to begin with. That's not what angers me though. I'm upset because the decision was revealed to be motivated by personal preference, and, that there is this illusion of discussion, as if there was ever any chance of minds being changed. I'm upset that it's implied I should accept that illusion or shut up or leave.
Either Gentoo is served by "unpaid volunteers who donate their free time" or it is "run by those who've earned the right to make the Gentoo Way Their Way." Both ways can be righteous, but sometimes there's the perspective of the latter with the expectation of appreciation that comes with the former. For example, the LKML community is the latter, everyone accepts that, and expectations are generally met. Here there is a conflict, and if you don't see it, one of us is living in a bubble because everyone I know (in the break room or on irc) can see it. |
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AllenJB
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 7:11 am Post subject: |
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The Linux Kernel community is different. Most of the Linux Kernel developers are paid by one company or another to work on the kernel and it's generally in those companies interests to make sure that the kernel is generally as good as it can be. The Linux Kernel community is by no means perfect - there are plenty of articles about the lack of desktop orientated development around the kernel, which happens because most of the companies involved are primarily in the server end of the market, either directly or indirectly - there are few that really make money out of desktop Linux.
It's cliche, but you seem to view things as black and white, when really they're shades of grey. Ideally, yes, all developers would serve the community first and foremost, but it's simply not going to happen. Even with the current state of things, Gentoo is seriously lacking in manpower.
The Gentoo has maintained both split and monolithic KDE packages for so long amazes me - KDE is no small program and the work that goes into it every time a new major release occurs is huge. "Personal preference" or not, is it really that hard to understand that there's simply not the manpower to maintain both split and monolithic KDE? Additionally, while KDE may be a "meta distribution", it's also a distribution in its own right - a source based one orientated around choice and customization - the split KDE packages follow that line far more than the monolithic packages in my opinion.
And it's not like this is a sudden decision - the monolithic packages have been marked as deprecated on the KDE guide for years. Granted not everyone looks there, but where can you put it where everyone will look?
(Edit: I've just noticed this is only mentioned on the Split Ebuild Guide, not the KDE Configuration Guide - I've filed Bug #235343 against this). |
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rlarkin
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Most of the Linux Kernel developers are paid by one company or another |
It has not always been this way, but the organization and the expectations of the community have always been the same.
| Quote: | | Ideally, yes, all developers would serve the community first and foremost |
Ideals are what I'm talking about, and ideals are black and white. The ideals and philosophy of the distribution should guide the strategic decisions made, and in this case, the decision made (and this decision was a strategic one, not a tactical one) opposes that philosophy. That's clear, that's black and white.
In the LKML there are established ideals and philosophies - when the official maintainer of a driver makes a decision contrary to those ideals, the other devs put a stop to it -as they should. For an example look at how the motivations/intentions of the AHCI driver maintainer were questioned. She was called on to demonstrate that a patch she submitted fit within the ideals of the community. It's her driver, her turf, her call, she is the dictator of her domian -until she makes a decision that strategically differs from established philosophy.
| Quote: | | is it really that hard to understand that there's simply not the manpower to maintain both split and monolithic KDE |
Absolutely not. The split ebuilds should never have been maintained at the expense of the upstream default. The current lack of manpower illustrates that not only are there philosophical problems with ignoring the upstream packaging default, there are serious technical ones as well.
| Quote: | | the monolithic packages have been marked as deprecated on the KDE guide for years |
That it's been years doesn't make it right. To reiterate, complaints/arguments were made back then, they were ignored. Pointedly ignored. In some cases (mine), rudely ignored.
Look at Debian (all volunteer). Clear, black and white expectations with regard to strategic decisions. That's real life, all healthy communities are secure with this foundation. Gentoo is lacking this clarity, and there is dissent, lack of resources, bickering. This is not vague or gray, it's clear - black and white. |
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aidanjt
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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| beandog wrote: | | So, just because we're not like Debian, we're doing it wrong? |
No, you're doing it wrong because you dander off and do whatever the hell you want. As in Gentoo developers are in a constant state of disorganisation and anarchy, with no clear plan or goals for the future. You're doing it wrong because you don't consult with, or even listen to community grevences. You're doing it wrong because there's a complete lack of functional communication between devs and users, and even between devs and devs running whatever adhoc pet projects they set up. Basically, Gentoo has become stagnent, disenchantised, and is highly resistant to it's user's ideas, wants, and needs.
| beandog wrote: | | Anyway, this example illustrates a point I like to make -- people will generally make an assumption (the sky is falling!) when, in reality, they have major complaints about *one* area of Gentoo. In this case, KDE. |
That comment further proves how completely disconnected the devs really are from the community, or reality in general.
| beandog wrote: | | Arguing is pointless. The key to changing things is to do something -- anything. And never give up. |
So users can change the organisational structure of Gentoo?.. Yeah, right. Any time a user has great ideas for Gentoo, devs blow off their efforts with insults, falacious rebuttals, or complete silence. So if that's the attitude at the thinking stage, how much worse does it get during attempted implementation? All we can do to fix it is argue our point, but then it really is pointless when the people who can effect change wont listen to reason, or offers lip service and does nothing.
Developer attitude has to change.
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| juniper wrote: | | you experience political reality dilation when travelling at american political speeds. it's in einstein's formulas. it's not their fault. |
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beandog
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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| AidanJT wrote: | | beandog wrote: | | So, just because we're not like Debian, we're doing it wrong? |
No, you're doing it wrong because you dander off and do whatever the hell you want. As in Gentoo developers are in a constant state of disorganisation and anarchy, with no clear plan or goals for the future. You're doing it wrong because you don't consult with, or even listen to community grevences. You're doing it wrong because there's a complete lack of functional communication between devs and users, and even between devs and devs running whatever adhoc pet projects they set up. Basically, Gentoo has become stagnent, disenchantised, and is highly resistant to it's user's ideas, wants, and needs.
| beandog wrote: | | Anyway, this example illustrates a point I like to make -- people will generally make an assumption (the sky is falling!) when, in reality, they have major complaints about *one* area of Gentoo. In this case, KDE. |
That comment further proves how completely disconnected the devs really are from the community, or reality in general.
| beandog wrote: | | Arguing is pointless. The key to changing things is to do something -- anything. And never give up. |
So users can change the organisational structure of Gentoo?.. Yeah, right. Any time a user has great ideas for Gentoo, devs blow off their efforts with insults, falacious rebuttals, or complete silence. So if that's the attitude at the thinking stage, how much worse does it get during attempted implementation? All we can do to fix it is argue our point, but then it really is pointless when the people who can effect change wont listen to reason, or offers lip service and does nothing.
Developer attitude has to change. |
For the record, I took my comment off, but you quoted me anyway ... that's fine, I don't mind. I just usually try not to get involved in these arguments anyway.
I still think you're using straw men analogies, though, for the record. Just because one dev does something, doesn't mean we all do. There is no concerted unified effort to ignore users.
Anyway, sorry if you feel like you're getting ignored. Getting involved is the way to change things.
Edit: Shameless plug: One thing I was thinking when reading this the first time was that on Planet Larry there really aren't ever any users that blog about perceived problems in Gentoo, and I wonder why that is. If anyone wants to set up a blog and mouth off ( with reasonable tact, hopefully ) then I'll be happy to add it to the feed. That's one way to get heard that no one seems to be really taking advantage of.
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beandog
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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Just thought I'd respond to each charge individually:
| AidanJT wrote: | | beandog wrote: | | So, just because we're not like Debian, we're doing it wrong? |
No, you're doing it wrong because you dander off and do whatever the hell you want. |
It's always been that way for Gentoo and all OSS projects that I can remember. I don't see it as the wrong way, but I've never had any real beefs with how Gentoo is proceeding, either.
| AidanJT wrote: | | As in Gentoo developers are in a constant state of disorganisation and anarchy, with no clear plan or goals for the future. |
Why do we need plans and goals? Eventually the direction is going to be where the developers want to go. So, if you want things to change, I'd suggest working on becoming a developer.
| AidanJT wrote: | | You're doing it wrong because you don't consult with, or even listen to community grevences. |
I fix bugs in Bugzilla all the time. Almost all of them are from the community. 
| AidanJT wrote: | | You're doing it wrong because there's a complete lack of functional communication between devs and users, and even between devs and devs running whatever adhoc pet projects they set up. |
For the record, I disagree. I don't have any problems with communicating with devs. bugzilla, gentoo-dev mailing list and IRC cover everything I need, then there's always individual email to teams / devs if we need to chat and can't seem to meet up.
| AidanJT wrote: | | Basically, Gentoo has become stagnent, disenchantised, and is highly resistant to it's user's ideas, wants, and needs. |
So, we should be doing what you want? Can I tell you how I want you to spend your free time?
| AidanJT wrote: | | beandog wrote: | | Anyway, this example illustrates a point I like to make -- people will generally make an assumption (the sky is falling!) when, in reality, they have major complaints about *one* area of Gentoo. In this case, KDE. |
That comment further proves how completely disconnected the devs really are from the community, or reality in general. |
How's that? The OP was focusing one area, and from that opinion, came to the conclusion that Gentoo as a whole is screwed up.
| AidanJT wrote: | | beandog wrote: | | Arguing is pointless. The key to changing things is to do something -- anything. And never give up. |
So users can change the organisational structure of Gentoo?.. Yeah, right. |
Working on becoming a developer, yes, they can change things by joining teams, influencing decisions directly, committing changes, etc.
| AidanJT wrote: | | Any time a user has great ideas for Gentoo, devs blow off their efforts with insults, falacious rebuttals, or complete silence. So if that's the attitude at the thinking stage, how much worse does it get during attempted implementation? All we can do to fix it is argue our point, but then it really is pointless when the people who can effect change wont listen to reason, or offers lip service and does nothing. |
Goes back to the whole "they should be doing whatever we want" argument. I really don't know where this idea comes from that distro developers should be working on whatever whims users want. Projects get started because of what the original developers wanted. Projects change because of developers.
| AidanJT wrote: | | Developer attitude has to change. |
How so? If you want to help, if you want to change things *honestly*, then I'll tell anyone how and help them to get involved. If they are really interested in change other than just complaining, then something will happen.
I'm really not trying to bash your argument -- I just want to point out there there are options to change things, and I'm trying to communicate those to you. But, if instead, my every comment is going to be taken as a statement from the Gentoo development community as a whole, then I don't see any point in continuing.
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aidanjt
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| beandog wrote: | | AidanJT wrote: | | beandog wrote: | | So, just because we're not like Debian, we're doing it wrong? |
No, you're doing it wrong because you dander off and do whatever the hell you want. |
It's always been that way for Gentoo and all OSS projects that I can remember. I don't see it as the wrong way, but I've never had any real beefs with how Gentoo is proceeding, either. |
None of the successful distros worked by everyone going off and do their own thing. Nothing does, it's called teamwork.
| beandog wrote: | | AidanJT wrote: | | As in Gentoo developers are in a constant state of disorganisation and anarchy, with no clear plan or goals for the future. |
Why do we need plans and goals? Eventually the direction is going to be where the developers want to go. So, if you want things to change, I'd suggest working on becoming a developer. |
*sigh* anyone who doesn't plan or has no goals wonder aimlessly though life, the same happens to projects. Nothing can be coordinated if nothing has been planned. No coordination, no teamwork. No teamwork, no substantial work can ever be completed.
| beandog wrote: | | AidanJT wrote: | | You're doing it wrong because you don't consult with, or even listen to community grevences. |
I fix bugs in Bugzilla all the time. Almost all of them are from the community. |
Bugzilla isn't exactly a medium for discussing ideas, technical issues, the future of the distro, and so on.
| beandog wrote: | | AidanJT wrote: | | You're doing it wrong because there's a complete lack of functional communication between devs and users, and even between devs and devs running whatever adhoc pet projects they set up. |
For the record, I disagree. I don't have any problems with communicating with devs. bugzilla, gentoo-dev mailing list and IRC cover everything I need, then there's always individual email to teams / devs if we need to chat and can't seem to meet up. |
See, right there, a communication malfunction. Functional communication has little to do with the carrier,
you can have a perfectly working email system that sorts and routes relevant mail to people automatically, and there could still be disfunctional communication. The breakdown here is purely social and structural (or lack thereof).
| beandog wrote: | | AidanJT wrote: | | Basically, Gentoo has become stagnent, disenchantised, and is highly resistant to it's user's ideas, wants, and needs. |
So, we should be doing what you want? Can I tell you how I want you to spend your free time? |
This isn't abount what *I* want *you* to do. It's about what the *community* wants the *gentoo developers* to do. If developers can't deal with the community then they should quit and make room for someone who's willing to do work for a change.
| beandog wrote: | | AidanJT wrote: | | beandog wrote: | | Anyway, this example illustrates a point I like to make -- people will generally make an assumption (the sky is falling!) when, in reality, they have major complaints about *one* area of Gentoo. In this case, KDE. |
That comment further proves how completely disconnected the devs really are from the community, or reality in general. |
How's that? The OP was focusing one area, and from that opinion, came to the conclusion that Gentoo as a whole is screwed up. |
Because it is, his particular issue highlights a central problem with Gentoo's social structure (again, or lack thereof).
| beandog wrote: | | AidanJT wrote: | | beandog wrote: | | Arguing is pointless. The key to changing things is to do something -- anything. And never give up. |
So users can change the organisational structure of Gentoo?.. Yeah, right. |
Working on becoming a developer, yes, they can change things by joining teams, influencing decisions directly, committing changes, etc. |
Why bother, as I said:
| AidanJT wrote: | | Any time a user has great ideas for Gentoo, devs blow off their efforts with insults, falacious rebuttals, or complete silence. So if that's the attitude at the thinking stage, how much worse does it get during attempted implementation? |
This is the exact kind of developer attitude driving users away from putting in time and effort.
| beandog wrote: | | AidanJT wrote: | | All we can do to fix it is argue our point, but then it really is pointless when the people who can effect change wont listen to reason, or offers lip service and does nothing. |
Goes back to the whole "they should be doing whatever we want" argument. I really don't know where this idea comes from that distro developers should be working on whatever whims users want. |
Because...... that's reality? See above.
| beandog wrote: | | Projects get started because of what the original developers wanted. Projects change because of developers. |
Projects start because *someone* (not just developers) had an idea. Projects suceed because many people made it so (users included).
| beandog wrote: | | AidanJT wrote: | | Developer attitude has to change. |
How so? If you want to help, if you want to change things *honestly*, then I'll tell anyone how and help them to get involved. If they are really interested in change other than just complaining, then something will happen. |
Gentoo developers almost always take user criticism as whinning without even considering the validity of their arguments. If you can't even rationalise problems with them, how could you work with them? This is an *especially* an important question where software development is concerned.
| beandog wrote: | | I'm really not trying to bash your argument -- I just want to point out there there are options to change things, and I'm trying to communicate those to you. But, if instead, my every comment is going to be taken as a statement from the Gentoo development community as a whole, then I don't see any point in continuing. |
The thing is, what you have said pretty much demonstrates the attitude of the Gentoo developers on a whole.
_________________
| juniper wrote: | | you experience political reality dilation when travelling at american political speeds. it's in einstein's formulas. it's not their fault. |
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aidanjt
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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| beandog wrote: | | For the record, I took my comment off, but you quoted me anyway ... that's fine, I don't mind. I just usually try not to get involved in these arguments anyway. |
That's ok, I was writting my reply before you deleted it, I didn't even notice before it was too late to delete mine. I can't blame you for wanting to avoid this line of discussion. It's frequently uncomfortable for all involved.
| beandog wrote: | | I still think you're using straw men analogies, though, for the record. Just because one dev does something, doesn't mean we all do. There is no concerted unified effort to ignore users. |
I agree that it isn't conciously done. It seems to be a social issue that few are willing to acknowledge, much less address.
| beandog wrote: | | Anyway, sorry if you feel like you're getting ignored. Getting involved is the way to change things. |
Not easy, or 'just that simple'. If you know what I mean.
| beandog wrote: | | Edit: Shameless plug: One thing I was thinking when reading this the first time was that on Planet Larry there really aren't ever any users that blog about perceived problems in Gentoo, and I wonder why that is. If anyone wants to set up a blog and mouth off ( with reasonable tact, hopefully ) then I'll be happy to add it to the feed. That's one way to get heard that no one seems to be really taking advantage of. |
I never even heard of the site before. 
_________________
| juniper wrote: | | you experience political reality dilation when travelling at american political speeds. it's in einstein's formulas. it's not their fault. |
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think4urs11
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Joined: 25 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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| AidanJT wrote: | | If developers can't deal with the community then they should quit and make room for someone who's willing to do work for a change. |
There is plenty of room. Where are the masses stepping up? </sarcasm>
| AidanJT wrote: | | The thing is, what you have said pretty much demonstrates the attitude of the Gentoo developers on a whole. |
Can you prove this with hard facts? I guess not.
I'm with you that not everything is running well but you're exaggerating here.
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Nothing is secure / Security is always a trade-off with usability / Do not assume anything / Trust no-one, nothing / Paranoia is your friend / Think for yourself |
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node_one
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Posts: 165
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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| beandog wrote: | | For the record, I disagree. I don't have any problems with communicating with devs. bugzilla, gentoo-dev mailing list and IRC cover everything I need, then there's always individual email to teams / devs if we need to chat and can't seem to meet up. |
Everyone has "blind spots." More is not better communication, but I will take more any day. Goals and plans communicate ideas, which turn into teamwork -> faster progress IMHO. I will leave it at that because, honestly, I do not see any way to repair some of this previous damage. 
| beandog wrote: | | Can I tell you how I want you to spend your free time? |
I am listening, seriously. Maybe we can get somewhere.  |
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rlarkin
n00b
Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 18
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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I was pretty ticked when I wrote my original post here, I won't claim surprise at not being completely understood by everyone. But even when I calmed down and tried to be as articulate as my poor brain can manage I see responses to arguments I'm not really making. I'm going to try distill my position as concisely as I can, as differently as I can, dropping reference to what pissed me off in the first place.
->The devs make decisions every day. All of the decisions can be classified as strategic or tactical.
->Only other devs in the hierarchy have perspective on tactical decisions.
->All strategic decisions have been made before the dev arrived at the question.
On the LKML, or within the Debian Project you can find discussions and arguments, plenty of them. The valid arguments put forth are strategic in nature. They are resolved eventually when someone proves or convinces everyone that his (or her) position is most in line with the community ideals and philosophy (Or a dictator with authority over that philosophy puts his foot down). On a level, you can say that the decision was discovered, not made.
What I often see here are tactical arguments for or against a strategic decision, and in that paradigm the dev closest to the problem get his way, and others are frustrated. Expectations are ill-managed in this scenario.
The approach so far has been to throw more tactical level process at the problem. User-Dev relations, etc. The poster above me said developers attitude needs to change - that's tactical level stuff, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that when a decision to be made is strategic in nature, the discussion around it needs to be strategic in nature, and, the final decision should have either been 'discovered', or, we've realized that our philosophy is unclear in this area and needs to be adjusted.
An example strategic discussion:
What is the definition of "meta-distribution"?
Is Gentoo a "meta-distribution"?
Generally, should the upstream defaults be Gentoo's defaults?
What components of Gentoo should be fixed? (Base Layout? Package Manager? etc.)
What components of Gentoo should be interchangeable? (System Logger?)
Is House Bill 55555 constitutional?
An example tactical discussion:
Why should I have to x when y is faster?
Is package n ready for stable?
Is application x "better" for job y?
What should be the tax level for income bracket 48,000 to 50,000?
In this paradigm my position can be clearly and irrefutabley proven right or wrong, or, it is proven that global philosophy lacks definition. The result is met expectations - frustrations do not linger and build.
I would say that the first question to ask in a conflict is "Is this a tactical or strategic decision?" If tactical, the dev owns the answer. If strategic, who owns the strategy? Core devs? Gentoo Council? "All of Us"? What is the strategy? Now we can 'discover' the correct choice that was there all along. The disappointed will more likely be accepting and not be posting rants on internet boards.
I submit the presence of this thread and others like it as evidence that the global philosophy and ideals of Gentoo are ill-defined and as long as they continue to be, JBAllen and others will continue to spend countless hours responding to complaints and rants on this forum. No amount of tactical level process fixes will change anything. |
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Nephilim666
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 07 Jul 2007
Posts: 148
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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| AidanJT wrote: | | beandog wrote: | | AidanJT wrote: | | beandog wrote: | | So, just because we're not like Debian, we're doing it wrong? |
No, you're doing it wrong because you dander off and do whatever the hell you want. |
It's always been that way for Gentoo and all OSS projects that I can remember. I don't see it as the wrong way, but I've never had any real beefs with how Gentoo is proceeding, either. |
None of the successful distros worked by everyone going off and do their own thing. Nothing does, it's called teamwork. |
Just because no one else does it, doesn't mean it is wrong. And never mind, that I don't believe that this is the way Gentoo actually works. As beandog pointed out, hardly anything is black or white. And there is guidance, but not all that much, which sometimes is a good thing, IMHO.
| AidanJT wrote: | | beandog wrote: | | AidanJT wrote: | | As in Gentoo developers are in a constant state of disorganisation and anarchy, with no clear plan or goals for the future. |
Why do we need plans and goals? Eventually the direction is going to be where the developers want to go. So, if you want things to change, I'd suggest working on becoming a developer. |
*sigh* anyone who doesn't plan or has no goals wonder aimlessly though life, the same happens to projects. Nothing can be coordinated if nothing has been planned. No coordination, no teamwork. No teamwork, no substantial work can ever be completed. |
If there would be no teamwork as you claim, why does Gentoo function for me for almost five years now. And taking in consideration that you obviously have been around for over three years, it seems to have worked for you quite well too.
| AidanJT wrote: | | beandog wrote: | | AidanJT wrote: | | You're doing it wrong because you don't consult with, or even listen to community grevences. |
I fix bugs in Bugzilla all the time. Almost all of them are from the community. |
Bugzilla isn't exactly a medium for discussing ideas, technical issues, the future of the distro, and so on. |
Wrong! Posting on the forums is futile! Most of the devs don't have the time to read it. Either open a bug or try to catch the dev on irc or with a mail.
| AidanJT wrote: | | beandog wrote: | | AidanJT wrote: | | You're doing it wrong because there's a complete lack of functional communication between devs and users, and even between devs and devs running whatever adhoc pet projects they set up. |
For the record, I disagree. I don't have any problems with communicating with devs. bugzilla, gentoo-dev mailing list and IRC cover everything I need, then there's always individual email to teams / devs if we need to chat and can't seem to meet up. |
See, right there, a communication malfunction. Functional communication has little to do with the carrier,
you can have a perfectly working email system that sorts and routes relevant mail to people automatically, and there could still be disfunctional communication. The breakdown here is purely social and structural (or lack thereof). |
Bitching on the forums without taking the responsibility to take action by informing the relevant dev per proper channels, won't get you anywhere; try to get that into your head. PLZ!!!
| AidanJT wrote: | | beandog wrote: | | AidanJT wrote: | | Basically, Gentoo has become stagnent, disenchantised, and is highly resistant to it's user's ideas, wants, and needs. |
So, we should be doing what you want? Can I tell you how I want you to spend your free time? |
This isn't abount what *I* want *you* to do. It's about what the *community* wants the *gentoo developers* to do. If developers can't deal with the community then they should quit and make room for someone who's willing to do work for a change. |
OH T3H n03Z! Not again that mantra. I'm just get sick of all this rants that simply don't understand how a cooperative volunteer project works and what quirks it has by definition. 
| AidanJT wrote: | | beandog wrote: | | AidanJT wrote: | | beandog wrote: | | Anyway, this example illustrates a point I like to make -- people will generally make an assumption (the sky is falling!) when, in reality, they have major complaints about *one* area of Gentoo. In this case, KDE. |
That comment further proves how completely disconnected the devs really are from the community, or reality in general. |
How's that? The OP was focusing one area, and from that opinion, came to the conclusion that Gentoo as a whole is screwed up. |
Because it is, his particular issue highlights a central problem with Gentoo's social structure (again, or lack thereof). |
Again you totally miss-interpret a single case as a systematical flaw in Gentoo's workings. Plz read up before complaining.
| AidanJT wrote: | | beandog wrote: | | AidanJT wrote: | | beandog wrote: | | Arguing is pointless. The key to changing things is to do something -- anything. And never give up. |
So users can change the organisational structure of Gentoo?.. Yeah, right. |
Working on becoming a developer, yes, they can change things by joining teams, influencing decisions directly, committing changes, etc. |
Why bother, as I said:
| AidanJT wrote: | | Any time a user has great ideas for Gentoo, devs blow off their efforts with insults, falacious rebuttals, or complete silence. So if that's the attitude at the thinking stage, how much worse does it get during attempted implementation? |
This is the exact kind of developer attitude driving users away from putting in time and effort. |
Have you tried? Where are your commits on bugs.gentoo.org? Looking at your last posts on this forums, which about 95% are in OTW  , you do not seem to be very deeply involved in this community. As a matter of fact, I think you enjoy a little bit of trolling once in a while, don't you!?
| AidanJT wrote: | | beandog wrote: | | AidanJT wrote: | | All we can do to fix it is argue our point, but then it really is pointless when the people who can effect change wont listen to reason, or offers lip service and does nothing. |
Goes back to the whole "they should be doing whatever we want" argument. I really don't know where this idea comes from that distro developers should be working on whatever whims users want. |
Because...... that's reality? See above. |
Now you really start to get ridiculous. Jeez! Peeps are doing this in their spare time! Where did you get the right to demand something from people that do things just because they like to. After all you scrounge off their work for the last couple of years if you really use Gentoo after all.
| AidanJT wrote: | | beandog wrote: | | Projects get started because of what the original developers wanted. Projects change because of developers. |
Projects start because *someone* (not just developers) had an idea. Projects succeed because many people made it so (users included). |
Dream on dude! Unless you get your ass up, you are at the whim of FOSS developers or you put up some cash and buy yourself a proprietary system, where you can bitch at developers that get at least paid for it. But plz don't bother the rest.
| AidanJT wrote: | | beandog wrote: | | AidanJT wrote: | | Developer attitude has to change. |
How so? If you want to help, if you want to change things *honestly*, then I'll tell anyone how and help them to get involved. If they are really interested in change other than just complaining, then something will happen. |
Gentoo developers almost always take user criticism as whining without even considering the validity of their arguments. If you can't even rationalize problems with them, how could you work with them? This is an *especially* an important question where software development is concerned. |
Same as above! Move your ass or pay the price with cash!
| AidanJT wrote: | | beandog wrote: | | I'm really not trying to bash your argument -- I just want to point out there there are options to change things, and I'm trying to communicate those to you. But, if instead, my every comment is going to be taken as a statement from the Gentoo development community as a whole, then I don't see any point in continuing. |
The thing is, what you have said pretty much demonstrates the attitude of the Gentoo developers on a whole. |
The thing is, if you didn't get until now, what this whole thing is about, I doubt you can grasp it at all, no offense dude.  |
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aidanjt
Veteran
Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Posts: 1118
Location: Rep. of Ireland
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 11:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Nephilim666 wrote: | | If there would be no teamwork as you claim, why does Gentoo function for me for almost five years now. And taking in consideration that you obviously have been around for over three years, it seems to have worked for you quite well too. |
It doesn't take teamwork to slap together a few ebuilds. And my presence here isn't an indicator of my Gentoo usage. That's an assumption, a bad one at that.
| Nephilim666 wrote: | | Wrong! Posting on the forums is futile! Most of the devs don't have the time to read it. Either open a bug or try to catch the dev on irc or with a mail. |
Posting anywhere is futile, that doesn't alter the fact that bugzilla is a useless discussion medium.
| Nephilim666 wrote: | | Bitching on the forums without taking the responsibility to take action by informing the relevant dev per proper channels, won't get you anywhere; try to get that into your head. PLZ!!! |
Been there, done that, waste of time. This isn't my first icecream picnic.
| Nephilim666 wrote: | | OH T3H n03Z! Not again that mantra. I'm just get sick of all this rants that simply don't understand how a cooperative volunteer project works and what quirks it has by definition. |
Pointless drivil.
| Nephilim666 wrote: | | Again you totally miss-interpret a single case as a systematical flaw in Gentoo's workings. Plz read up before complaining. |
Please cease talking out of your arse, the OPs gripe was a sociopolitical one between users and developers. It's a deep problem that's been growing worse over time. Even a blind man can see it.
| Nephilim666 wrote: | | Have you tried? Where are your commits on bugs.gentoo.org? Looking at your last posts on this forums, which about 95% are in OTW , you do not seem to be very deeply involved in this community. As a matter of fact, I think you enjoy a little bit of trolling once in a while, don't you!? |
Yes I've tried. Can't find my comments?.. Fix the bugs in bugzilla. 95% of my posts are in OTW because 95% of the people with beans between their ears only post there, and more intelligent gentoo discussion goes on there than anywhere else on these forums. And you can drop the lulz.
| Nephilim666 wrote: | | Now you really start to get ridiculous. Jeez! Peeps are doing this in their spare time! Where did you get the right to demand something from people that do things just because they like to. After all you scrounge off their work for the last couple of years if you really use Gentoo after all. |
More assumptions, *yawn*
| Nephilim666 wrote: | | Dream on dude! Unless you get your ass up, you are at the whim of FOSS developers or you put up some cash and buy yourself a proprietary system, where you can bitch at developers that get at least paid for it. But plz don't bother the rest. |
lolz? 
| Nephilim666 wrote: | | Same as above! Move your ass or pay the price with cash! |
My ass moved. Lost interest. The end.
| Nephilim666 wrote: | | The thing is, if you didn't get until now, what this whole thing is about, I doubt you can grasp it at all, no offense dude. |
More pointless drivil. I mean, there's enough developers with a God complex. They don't need you to obtain a worshiper complex to help them spout nonsense to maintain the status quo, they are, afterall omnipotent.
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| juniper wrote: | | you experience political reality dilation when travelling at american political speeds. it's in einstein's formulas. it's not their fault. |
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kernelOfTruth
Watchman
Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 6111
Location: Vienna, Austria; Germany; hello world :)
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Nephilim666 wrote: | | AidanJT wrote: | | beandog wrote: | | AidanJT wrote: | | Basically, Gentoo has become stagnent, disenchantised, and is highly resistant to it's user's ideas, wants, and needs. |
So, we should be doing what you want? Can I tell you how I want you to spend your free time? |
This isn't abount what *I* want *you* to do. It's about what the *community* wants the *gentoo developers* to do. If developers can't deal with the community then they should quit and make room for someone who's willing to do work for a change. |
OH T3H n03Z! Not again that mantra. I'm just get sick of all this rants that simply don't understand how a cooperative volunteer project works and what quirks it has by definition.
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fwiw: the gentoo devs should at least be openminded enough to listen to the things the community tells them, this includes critics, suggestions, code, etc. and decide to include & include it (== do what the community says) and/or drop parts or the whole thing (== don't do it and/or do something better) by not doing they should at least give the community the opportunity to do it on their own (lowering the rules for becoming a gentoo-devs for ex. or letting community-members loosely work in a project which the devs don't really have interest in)
that's the main point in my pov: please be open towards others opinions / views etc. and don't insist on the fact that everything YOU do is the NON-PLUS-ULTRA 
you'll find out that teamwork also might be of great help in certain situations
thanks
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Hardcore Gentoo Linux user since 2004 
Last edited by kernelOfTruth on Thu Aug 21, 2008 11:43 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Nephilim666
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 07 Jul 2007
Posts: 148
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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| AidanJT wrote: | | ---Didn't care to give any arguments.--- |
Who would have guessed. |
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aidanjt
Veteran
Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Posts: 1118
Location: Rep. of Ireland
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Nephilim666 wrote: | | AidanJT wrote: | | ---Didn't care to give any arguments.--- |
Who would have guessed. |
A counter argument requires an argument to counter. Never the less, I took the time to answer your strangly structured commentry. Be happy.
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| juniper wrote: | | you experience political reality dilation when travelling at american political speeds. it's in einstein's formulas. it's not their fault. |
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Nephilim666
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 07 Jul 2007
Posts: 148
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| Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 11:56 pm Post subject: |
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| kernelOfTruth wrote: | | Nephilim666 wrote: | | AidanJT wrote: | | beandog wrote: | | AidanJT wrote: | | Basically, Gentoo has become stagnent, disenchantised, and is highly resistant to it's user's ideas, wants, and needs. |
So, we should be doing what you want? Can I tell you how I want you to spend your free time? |
This isn't abount what *I* want *you* to do. It's about what the *community* wants the *gentoo developers* to do. If developers can't deal with the community then they should quit and make room for someone who's willing to do work for a change. |
OH T3H n03Z! Not again that mantra. I'm just get sick of all this rants that simply don't understand how a cooperative volunteer project works and what quirks it has by definition.
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fwiw: the gentoo devs should at least be openminded enough to listen to the things the community tells them, this includes critics, suggestions, code, etc. and decide to include & include it (== do what the community says) and/or drop parts or the whole thing (== don't do it and/or do something better) by not doing they should at least give the community the opportunity to do it on their own (lowering the rules for becoming a gentoo-devs for ex. or letting community-members loosely work in a project which the devs don't really have interest in)
that's the main point in my pov: please be open towards others opinions / views etc. and don't insist on the fact that everything YOU do is the NON-PLUS-ULTRA
you'll find out that teamwork also might be of great help in certain situations
thanks |
Seriously, do you really think that most of the Gentoo devs wouldn't listen to productive commits? I know that there are always a bunch of peeps that are quite unfriendly, but almost all of the devs I met on IRC where quite polite, when there was someone raising an issue that had some merit. It's just, that most of them get stubburn when people start to demand things without taking any responsibility. And of course there are fights within Gentoo - but without teamwork, things wouldn't work as they have been for the last couple of years.
Ausnahmen bestätigen die Regel! |
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kernelOfTruth
Watchman
Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 6111
Location: Vienna, Austria; Germany; hello world :)
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 12:00 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Nephilim666 wrote: | | *snip* ... *snip* |
Seriously, do you really think that most of the Gentoo devs wouldn't listen to productive commits? I know that there are always a bunch of peeps that are quite unfriendly, but almost all of the devs I met on IRC where quite polite, when there was someone raising an issue that had some merit. It's just, that most of them get stubburn when people start to demand things without taking any responsibility. And of course there are fights within Gentoo - but without teamwork, things wouldn't work as they have been for the last couple of years.
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well then I must have encountered & read from a big part of the wrong piece of cake (those so-called *peeps*)
sure there are also a lot of very polite & helpful devs I met,
| Quote: | | Ausnahmen bestätigen die Regel! |
wie recht du hast
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Nephilim666
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 07 Jul 2007
Posts: 148
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 12:23 am Post subject: |
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| kernelOfTruth wrote: | | well then I must have encountered & read from a big part of the wrong piece of cake (those so-called *peeps*) |
Well, just to mention the obvious:
It's often easier to hang out at a channel for a while to get to known everyone in the group before suggesting that ...
<sarcasm> all that they have done until now is crap!!!  </sarcasm>
People need to get to know you before they develop some confidence in your suggestions. But I do understand that some of them simply are pricks.  |
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beandog
Bodhisattva
Joined: 04 May 2003
Posts: 2072
Location: /usa/utah
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 12:30 am Post subject: |
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| AidanJT wrote: | | beandog wrote: | | For the record, I took my comment off, but you quoted me anyway ... that's fine, I don't mind. I just usually try not to get involved in these arguments anyway. |
That's ok, I was writting my reply before you deleted it, I didn't even notice before it was too late to delete mine. I can't blame you for wanting to avoid this line of discussion. It's frequently uncomfortable for all involved. |
Agreed. I'm just gonna bow out of the discussion then, but I'll leave off with some final words.
Almost *all* my input "from the community" comes in the form of filing bugs. It may not seem like the best place for discussion to happen, but for me (only speaking for myself) it's a great place where things change and happen, because users will post bugs of what they want to change (fix a package, bump it, etc)., and developers can comment on the situation, fix it, explain it, whatever ... and it's all documented right there as a reference.
I realize of course if you're just referring to broad sweeping changes like "fix leadership", thats not really a bug you can file, but as far as what Gentoo has and does as part of the distribution -- what users get on their desktop -- that's the place to take it to. If I feel like working on something Gentoo related, my first stop isn't searching the forums looking for some random problem that people are having. Nope, I go to bugzilla and look at what bugs are in there that need some loving. The forums are a good way to keep a pulse, though, on general problems people are having (ALSA issues, for one, comes to mind), but most of the time the posts are from people having one problem with one package.
It seems like (again, from *my* perspective based on the packages I touch) that users don't really participate much on 'zilla, and I'm kind of curious why. I'll admit that from the offset it seems like a huge beast if you haven't used it much, but it's a great place to specifically track and request tasks that you are interested in.
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If it ain't broke, tweak it. dvds | blurays | blog | wiki |
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steveL
Watchman
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 6:10 am Post subject: |
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| beandog wrote: | Almost *all* my input "from the community" comes in the form of filing bugs. It may not seem like the best place for discussion to happen, but for me (only speaking for myself) it's a great place where things change and happen, because users will post bugs of what they want to change (fix a package, bump it, etc)., and developers can comment on the situation, fix it, explain it, whatever ... and it's all documented right there as a reference.
I realize of course if you're just referring to broad sweeping changes like "fix leadership", thats not really a bug you can file, but as far as what Gentoo has and does as part of the distribution -- what users get on their desktop -- that's the place to take it to. If I feel like working on something Gentoo related, my first stop isn't searching the forums looking for some random problem that people are having. Nope, I go to bugzilla and look at what bugs are in there that need some loving. The forums are a good way to keep a pulse, though, on general problems people are having (ALSA issues, for one, comes to mind), but most of the time the posts are from people having one problem with one package.
It seems like (again, from *my* perspective based on the packages I touch) that users don't really participate much on 'zilla, and I'm kind of curious why. I'll admit that from the offset it seems like a huge beast if you haven't used it much, but it's a great place to specifically track and request tasks that you are interested in. |
That's all technical stuff, and it's ofc what we want you to be interested in (it's what we're mainly interested in too) but at the same time we are human beings and we need "soft" things like the odd bit of respect and manners. Not all of us know code (a surprising amount do) but one thing we do know is how to administer Gentoo boxen. If enough of us are complaining consistently about something, or asking for some feature "since the dawn of time" it's because it would be useful not because we get off on whinging at you.
We're more than happy to give you kudos, more than happy to file bugs and patches, and more than happy to do the support work so you can continue to develop the Gentoo we love.
I agree with the OP about the strategic/tactical (which the technical can occasionally be) split, but not about KDE. The reason I love Gentoo KDE is precisely because I don't have to pull in 20 apps when I just want one; if I want to do that for a particular bunch of things, I can, and I get to decide exactly what those are (and with @sets I can now easily define and track my own.) Overlays are a great idea, so long as you make sure it's from an official Gentoo group (haskell is the best one imo in terms of code that's developed in-house; dcoutts seems to be a bit of a legend in the #haskell world) and sunrise is designed to work with the main portage tree. I also see posts from well-respected FOSS developers on bugzilla.
Technically Gentoo is going from strength to strength. Personally I think it's improving socially, although the mailing list is still quite embarrassing (which is an improvement.) To answer your question: we don't discuss on bugzilla because as soon as we disagree we get told "this isn't a discussion forum." And yeah, newbs need to learn that there is a distinction (the recent KDE one was a disaster) but devs need to acknowledge that it is indeed a discussion forum -- as you outlined, with much tighter focus agreed, but stilll a medium of communication. If they're feeling under siege they should follow their own advice and cool off for a bit, or get a bug-wrangler or even userrel to back them up.
Beandog: none of this is aimed at you: you're actually one of the most pleasant devs in Gentoo imo. Perhaps it's something to do with your faith idk; all I know is you're not the archetypal Gentoo dev.
Getting a friend to come in and get pissy never helps ;-) If the person you're calling on is just going to be aggressive (or plain rude) tell em it's ok, leave it, or pick em up on it in public (on the same medium they've been a twat on.) If you guys did that, you'd have a lot more confidence from your users. As it is, it feels like you back each other up, with loads of leeway about how off-topic or rude you are, and gang up on us when we try to fit in. Any idea how hurtful that is to someone who's spending their valuable free time to give feedback and communicate in the way we've been told we should?
Believe me it is valuable; we're not 90% students. The ones who aren't, or indeed kids, actually work full time in the real world, some of us in software development, some in network admin, some in totally different areas than IT, but hey: we get paid and have to put up with crap all day. We use Gentoo because we love it, and we love your work, but this is our free time too. Sorry but when I was a student I would never have whinged about "my free time" the way you lot do; wait til those kids get out into the real world and have to earn a living or heaven forfend bring up their own kids. Then we'll see who's got free time ;)
Seriously, man, we ain't making this up. I have a lot of faith in NeddySeagoon and actually like most of the devs I've personally interacted with, and I'm totally happy with my machines. It just annoys me that so much time is spent on arguing about why no-one wants to make the distro better for its users. Frankly I find that appalling in any software project. If you want to write code solely for your own benefit, guess what? You don't need to be part of a distro to do it.
That's the nub of it to me: if you're a Gentoo dev, you're there to make the distro better for its users. Sure, you get to work on what you want, to make those tools you package nicer to work with (and you outlined exactly how you do that.) Let us help you to do that: pick people up on their bad manners publically so we'll believe you actually want us to. If nothing else, they sully the badge you worked so hard to get.
None of this is about forcing anyone to do anything and like I said, beandog has always behaved impeccably. It's about basic values, the stuff that was in the Code of Conduct and all the other documents before that. Gentoo is growing: it needs a bit more structure, without losing its (dys)functional anarchy.. I love it :-) All of us do, man. |
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node_one
Apprentice
Joined: 07 Apr 2008
Posts: 165
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 7:00 am Post subject: |
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| I agree with quite a few things steveL said above. The things I do not agree with are not important enough to mention in a long, quote filled, post. |
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