| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
McLink
Apprentice
Joined: 02 Feb 2008
Posts: 181
Location: /dev/chair
|
 Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 12:03 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
The slowness of packages entering the tree is one of the main downsides of Gentoo, in my opinion. Some packages have versions that have been around for ages, but Portage still doesn't have those versions. I suppose it's just the lack of maintainers, but seeing other distros ship much more recent packages is a right eyesore. And while overlays can help, mixing many overlays usually spawns a whole new array of problems.
And no offence to the maintainers, but I'd also like to see some more effort to migrate ebuilds from sunrise into the main tree. And finally, it'd be ace if some packages left hardmask a little sooner (yes, I'm referring to KDE 4).
Still loving Gentoo, though!
_________________
| Mc'abit wrote: | | Islam isn't the problem, religion is. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
digrouz
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 19 Feb 2005
Posts: 124
Location: Mouscron, Belgium
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 12:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I'm agree with you, maybe we can help maintainers but how? I mean, if you want to help them but don't have a regular time basis to give?
Gentoo is still my distribution of choice indeed.
_________________
There are 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
F_
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 31 Dec 2006
Posts: 142
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 1:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I usually just run through the commands:
emerge --sync
emerge -avuDN world
emerge -av --depclean
dispatch-conf
revdep-rebuild
At some point (dispatch-conf?) I need to edit config files and I don't want to.
1. I am lazy (i know... but I am a student right now and during the semester i can't focus 100% on my machine  )
2. I don't know wtf I am editing because I haven't studied to great length on the script/program the config deals with (why? see above)
That is all. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
node_one
Apprentice
Joined: 07 Apr 2008
Posts: 165
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 2:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| digrouz wrote: | | I'm agree with you, maybe we can help maintainers but how? I mean, if you want to help them but don't have a regular time basis to give? |
I would say just work on whatever you can whenever you can on Bugzilla. IMHO, it is better than doing nothing just because of a time constraint. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Hypnos
Advocate
Joined: 18 Jul 2002
Posts: 2889
Location: Omnipresent
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 3:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Paludis has enhanced my Gentoo experience. It won't permit unsafe uninstalls (unless you explicitly request it), will remove unneeded dependencies if you ask it to, and it tells you what repository an installable ebuild is in if you query or do install+pretend.
Moreover, it gives sane error messages if there is some bug in the repository and there are nice query tools included.
***
As for what I would like to see improve, I don't mind that some ebuilds take a while to get over from Sunrise or into stable. Often, people whine for ebuilds that just aren't ready for primetime. That said, more developers who have the time to keep up with new versions of even obscure packages wouldn't hurt.
After buying this Thinkpad a month ago or so the only issue I had in the install (apart from hardware-type things noted in my sig) is circular dependencies. I wonder if there is some safe way to handle these automatically ...
Along these same lines, I'm looking forward to EAPI-2 which will have USE deps. It's annoying to embark on a long install to only have it quit saying that some dep needed to be built with a particular USE flag -- useful to know that beforehand, or even for it to be handled automatically.
_________________
Personal overlay | Simple backup scheme |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jonnevers
Veteran
Joined: 02 Jan 2003
Posts: 1594
Location: Gentoo64 land
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 3:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Hypnos wrote: | | Paludis has enhanced my Gentoo experience. It won't permit unsafe uninstalls (unless you explicitly request it), will remove unneeded dependencies if you ask it to, and it tells you what repository an installable ebuild is in if you query or do install+pretend. |
portage does #2 (--depclean) and #3 (by default, at least for -pv or -av not sure on querying, using equery though). I don't know what you mean by the first thing though.
| Code: | user host ~ $ e gnome
These are the packages that would be merged, in order:
Calculating dependencies... done!
[ebuild R ] gnome-base/gnome-2.24.0 USE="cdr cups dvdr -accessibility -esd -ldap -mono" 0 kB [1]
Total: 1 package (1 reinstall), Size of downloads: 0 kB
Portage tree and overlays:
[0] /usr/portage
[1] /usr/portage/local/layman/gnome |
| Hypnos wrote: | | Along these same lines, I'm looking forward to EAPI-2 which will have USE deps. It's annoying to embark on a long install to only have it quit saying that some dep needed to be built with a particular USE flag -- useful to know that beforehand, or even for it to be handled automatically. |
oh boy yeah. "please recompile qt with qt3support" always gets me (my fault i suppose though for emerging KDE, removing it, emerging other things that then use qt4... etc.) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Hypnos
Advocate
Joined: 18 Jul 2002
Posts: 2889
Location: Omnipresent
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 3:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| jonnevers wrote: | | portage does #2 (--depclean) and #3 (by default, at least for -pv or -av not sure on querying, using equery though). I don't know what you mean by the first thing though. |
Some mentioned above that emerge will gladly uninstall something without first checking if it is needed by something else.
If depclean now works reliably, that's great; same with reporting which ebuilds go with which repos. I haven't used Portage in ages, except for briefly dealing with stage3 on my latest install, so I apologize if I have missed some improvements.
_________________
Personal overlay | Simple backup scheme |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
pdw_hu
Apprentice
Joined: 02 Jun 2008
Posts: 200
Location: Budapest, Hungary
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| I'd love to see a specific guide about USE flags. For example, who knows what the "jpeg" USE flag does for cups? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Hypnos
Advocate
Joined: 18 Jul 2002
Posts: 2889
Location: Omnipresent
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 5:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| pdw_hu wrote: | | I'd love to see a specific guide about USE flags. For example, who knows what the "jpeg" USE flag does for cups? |
Good point -- I end up having to read ebuilds way too often to figure out what feature a USE flag includes.
Someone may respond that you shouldn't enable a USE flag unless you know the package intimately and know what it does -- such as after you install the package sans some feature you were expecting 
_________________
Personal overlay | Simple backup scheme |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
audiodef
Watchman
Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 6639
Location: The soundosphere
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tanderson
Retired Dev
Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 193
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 5:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| audiodef wrote: | | I was just reading about Paludis, and according to its web site, it deals with a lot of Portage stuff we've been complaining about. I'm emerging it now to give it a try. I'm hoping it'll help me clean up a big dependency tree mess before having to rebuild the system from scratch. |
It does indeed. In addition it supports searching for packages in overlays you don't have installed, which I mentioned a bit ago in this thread. Sadly, a great deal of features can't be used in the portage tree due to portage not keeping up with the development pace, but there are some goodies that don't require tree changes.
_________________
No Man is Just a Number!
--The Prisoner |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jonnevers
Veteran
Joined: 02 Jan 2003
Posts: 1594
Location: Gentoo64 land
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 6:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| gentoofan23 wrote: | | Sadly, a great deal of features can't be used in the portage tree due to portage not keeping up with the development pace |
awww booboo. you and/or the paludis community is welcome to create their own repository tree...
also, if people haven't used the new portage-2.2 package, i think its very unfair to continue to level criticism that may or may no longer apply. the portage devs have been very busy, the fire has effectively been lit under them and they've covered a lot of ground.
(keep in mind, i've used paludis on several systems and like it quite a lot)
Last edited by jonnevers on Wed Oct 15, 2008 6:02 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
audiodef
Watchman
Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 6639
Location: The soundosphere
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ericjohnson
n00b
Joined: 30 Dec 2005
Posts: 15
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 6:06 pm Post subject: Need more transparency into why things are not stable |
|
|
For the most part, I run a stable Gentoo system, and I really like it.
I do find myself frustrated that it is rare to see *why* a particular version of a package takes so long to get marked as "stable." Some things move quickly, and some don't.
Off the top of my head examples include: firefox 3.0.X, gcc 4.3.X, baselayout2
I generally understand why they might take a while to stabilize, so don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining about that. I'm also not complaining if the developers simply don't have a lot of time to work on a package I'm curious about. Fundamentally, I'm more curious about when they might be expected. GCC, for example, obviously has profound implications on getting everything currently stable to build. Yet, how close is that milestone? How many packages are still problematic?
If, for example, the problems remaining in baselayout-2.0.0 are related to hardware I don't have, maybe I want to go unstable and get the advantages now?
I follow the Planet Gentoo feed, so I see postings there. It is also possible to look for bugs in the bug database, but sometimes there is too much detail there, so it is hard to get an idea of the big picture. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tanderson
Retired Dev
Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 193
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 6:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| audiodef wrote: | | Running Paludis now... so far, so good. What's the Ruby interface, and how do I use it? Is it a GUI? |
Ruby is just for bindings. There is a gtk gui, but it's highly experimental and not able to be used by using the ebuilds in the tree.
_________________
No Man is Just a Number!
--The Prisoner |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
audiodef
Watchman
Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 6639
Location: The soundosphere
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tanderson
Retired Dev
Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 193
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 6:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| jonnevers wrote: | | gentoofan23 wrote: | | Sadly, a great deal of features can't be used in the portage tree due to portage not keeping up with the development pace |
awww booboo. you and/or the paludis community is welcome to create their own repository tree...
also, if people haven't used the new portage-2.2 package, i think its very unfair to continue to level criticism that may or may no longer apply. the portage devs have been very busy, the fire has effectively been lit under them and they've covered a lot of ground.
(keep in mind, i've used paludis on several systems and like it quite a lot) |
Oh no, don't think I'm suggesting the portage devs aren't working their tails off; It's just that with one fulltime dev and one part-time dev they can't keep up with all the features paludis has.
And I'm not dissing portage-2.2 either(i've used it), nor am I criticising it. I'm merely saying there are a ton of features not yet implemented mostly because of a messy codebase the current portage developers inherited.
_________________
No Man is Just a Number!
--The Prisoner |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
M
Guru
Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Posts: 432
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 7:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I don't like overlays, they are good and what should we do without them but... different ebuilds of same packages with different USE flags names for example, I cannot just add whole overlay if I need only couple of things from him, who knows what will happen, but instead I have to copy ebuilds to my local overlay, I have to copy mesa ebuild from X11 overlay because one in nouveau is broken, etc... Maybe some rules for this, if overlay maintainer wants his overlay in global layman/playman list he have to follow some rules or something like that.
| Quote: |
audiodef wrote:
Running Paludis now... so far, so good. What's the Ruby interface, and how do I use it? Is it a GUI?
Ruby is just for bindings. There is a gtk gui, but it's highly experimental and not able to be used by using the ebuilds in the tree.
|
You will need ruby bindings if you want to use playman, I also don't like to keep ruby just for one script but, for now no choice... as far as I know, maybe someone is working on python bindings script... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
audiodef
Watchman
Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 6639
Location: The soundosphere
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 8:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| audiodef wrote: | | My next gripe: Gentoo should offer a choice of package managers right from the initial install and setup. I know this would add to the documentation, but even only having used Paludis for all of 5 minutes, I already know I'm going to make a permanent switch from Portage. It'd be nice to have at least 2 or 3 PM choices from the beginning. |
I'm doing an install right now. I'm going to try using Paludis from the start - I'll download the Portage snapshot, emerge Paludis, and just use Paludis from there. We'll see what happens.
_________________
decibel Linux: https://decibellinux.org
Github: https://github.com/Gentoo-Music-and-Audio-Technology
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/decibellinux
Discord: https://discord.gg/73XV24dNPN |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ink_arni
n00b
Joined: 17 Jan 2008
Posts: 19
Location: Europe
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 4:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| d2_racing wrote: | Me too, I don't like that Firefox 3.0.x is still mark as testing. But Since I upgraded to Firefox 3.0.3, I had to revdep-rebuild a lot of package because of certain lib, so I understand why.
What is the status of GCC 4.3 or even GCC 4.2 ?
I'm using GCC 4.1, but it would be nice to have some feedback about which one of the version will hit stable in a couple of months. |
Oh yes, these are definitely good points.
Firefox 3 should definitely be considered stable, since it has been perfectly usable for more than 6 months, including the latest RCs (At least on other platforms, because I admit I upgraded my Gentoo to Fx3 very recently - I was waiting it to hit stable and after all the waiting I finally got bored and unmasked it).
And yes, having more feedback about the GCC status would be nice. I run a stable system but I've considered unmasking a more recent version. I don't want to unmask 4.2 and rebuild the whole world only to discover three days later that version 4.3 has become stable and that 4.2 never will! (Yes, I know about the relevant "tracker" bugs, but they don't really reveal the intentions of the maintainers.)
EDIT: All these Paludis-related messages are annoyingly off-topic. This is NOT supposed to be the "Paludis vs. Portage" thread! If anything, having the ability to select between multiple package management systems is one of Gentoo's strengths, so this discussion has no place here, either.
Last edited by Ink_arni on Fri Oct 17, 2008 4:47 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
energyman76b
Advocate
Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 2048
Location: Germany
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 4:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| audiodef wrote: | Windows and MacOS will pop up a dialog when something crashes, even if it's "DaBigBadProgram has unexpectedly quit because an error of type -1 occurred".
Shouldn't Gentoo have this, to at least give us a clue to use to figure out why Flumdebox has crashed? |
that is the job of your desktop. Lo and behold - kde does exactly that!
_________________
Study finds stunning lack of racial, gender, and economic diversity among middle-class white males
I identify as a dirty penismensch. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Need4Speed
Guru
Joined: 06 Jun 2004
Posts: 497
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 4:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| audiodef wrote: | | audiodef wrote: | | My next gripe: Gentoo should offer a choice of package managers right from the initial install and setup. I know this would add to the documentation, but even only having used Paludis for all of 5 minutes, I already know I'm going to make a permanent switch from Portage. It'd be nice to have at least 2 or 3 PM choices from the beginning. |
I'm doing an install right now. I'm going to try using Paludis from the start - I'll download the Portage snapshot, emerge Paludis, and just use Paludis from there. We'll see what happens. |
I agree. I didn't mind portage so much before I started using overlays, but now that I use paludis, I would never switch back. I know there has been some tension between gentoo and paludis devs, but I would really like to see paludis become more accepted by gentoo.
Other than that, I love Gentoo and have never even considered using another distro! 
_________________
2.6.34-rc3 on x86_64 w/ paludis
WM: ratpoison
Term: urxvt, zsh
Browser: uzbl
Email: mutt, offlineimap
IRC: weechat
News: newsbeuter
PDF: apvlv |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
energyman76b
Advocate
Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 2048
Location: Germany
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 4:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
things I really don't like:
-removing packages it just downloaded, because the hash is incorrect. Then download it again, remove, download - all because the hash in the local file is wrong - not the packet. It would be nice if portage saves the 'wrong' hash - and when the package comes from a different server with the same hash, discard the one from manifest as wrong.
-stupid mirrors. Downloading a packet from a freaking slow danish server... and the next. And the one after that - while downloading it via ncftp from any other server is 10x as fast.
-blockers. Oh, I hate them. Most of them are because some file changed from one packet to another. IMHO no good reason for a blocker - but it is. grrr.
-eselect opengl. Unmerge the nvidia or ati driver, emerge it again and watch the breakage because eselect can't cope with dangling symlinks. I hate that so much. Because it always happens when you are tired and forgot about it.
-package.unmask/package.keywords. When I want to install a package that is not deemed 'stable enough' print a warning or make use of a --force switch, but hunting around for the package and right deps to put into this files just sucks. It really does. That you have to put = in front of the name when using version numbers doesn't make it better.
_________________
Study finds stunning lack of racial, gender, and economic diversity among middle-class white males
I identify as a dirty penismensch. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
seqizz
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 14 Jan 2008
Posts: 103
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 4:50 pm Post subject: :\ |
|
|
Umm.. good question 
For me, not so much.. I love this dist..
Portage is the heart of (current) gentoo, could not be possible to put choices while installation.
But maybe portage needs some speed ?
&and&
Agreed with energyman76b's "-package.unmask/package.keywords" section.. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ink_arni
n00b
Joined: 17 Jan 2008
Posts: 19
Location: Europe
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 4:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| energyman76b wrote: | | -stupid mirrors. Downloading a packet from a freaking slow danish server... and the next. And the one after that - while downloading it via ncftp from any other server is 10x as fast. |
Have you tried running the "mirrorselect" command and setting the GENTOO_MIRRORS variable accordingly in your make.conf?
But yes, watching portage trying to fetch a package from a server that is clearly off-line and failing 10 times in a row before giving up is damn annoying! In case of failure, it should at least try one of the other mirrors in the GENTOO_MIRRORS list (if set).
EDIT: This page may also help you decide. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
Gentoo Chat
