View previous topic :: View next topic |
The move towards automation |
Good |
|
20% |
[ 74 ] |
Bad |
|
14% |
[ 51 ] |
As long as I can install it the classical way I don't care what newbies do |
|
64% |
[ 232 ] |
|
Total Votes : 357 |
|
Author |
Message |
neuron Advocate
Joined: 28 May 2002 Posts: 2371
|
Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2003 11:48 am Post subject: |
|
|
kallamej wrote: | neuron wrote: | so how about my little idea, genkernel --graphical, maybe even force it.
genkernel sets up a kernel with stuff required by gentoo, such as devfs atm. With a crapload of stuff as modules, then launches make menuconfig. Then the newbies who wishes to use genkernel and can go in and turn off stuff they don't need. If they know how. After that it installs. |
This is what genkernel --config does. |
yeah, I just realized that |
|
Back to top |
|
|
cybrjackle Apprentice
Joined: 09 Jan 2003 Posts: 248 Location: USA
|
Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2003 1:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I've compiled more kernels than I care to think about, if you use:
Code: | #genkernel --config |
really isn't that much different than:
Code: | # make dep && make clean bzImage modules modules_install
# cp /usr/src/linux/arch/i386/boot/bzImage /boot
|
Only less typing. I have no problem either way, but I do like automation. If we didn't like automation, "emerge and portage" would be out the window for us.
Just my thoughts, |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Sergio1704 n00b
Joined: 16 Aug 2003 Posts: 73
|
Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 10:15 pm Post subject: Re: Genkernel - blessing or curse? |
|
|
paranode wrote: | I think you should learn how to compile and configure a kernel if you are going to use Linux |
OK, let's put it like that,(old, known example): somebody gives you a car as a birthday present.
You have no idea what to do with it, you have never driven in your life.
So what is the first thing you do, do you learn how to repair the engine?
I suppose not, you learn how to drive it.
The kernel is the linux engine, as we all know.
You might want to learn how to compile it, but not for a starter! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
raid517 l33t
Joined: 06 Mar 2003 Posts: 946
|
Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 11:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Good analogy, but I'm sure others will want to play that game too...
Q |
|
Back to top |
|
|
paranode l33t
Joined: 06 Mar 2003 Posts: 679 Location: Texas
|
Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 11:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
raid517 wrote: | Good analogy, but I'm sure others will want to play that game too... |
Yeah.. if someone gave you a computer with Linux on it I wouldn't expect you to know how to compile a kernel. Hell, I wouldn't even really expect you to know how to do it on Red Hat or Mandrake. With Gentoo, given that the distribution is based on source, I think it's important to learn what you're doing since it's one of the steps to completing the install process. I think it'd be better just to give the user a generic LiveCD .config file and show them how to build it, and also point them to some documentation where they can learn about the options if they want to. Instead, the guide just kind of gleams over it now, mostly telling you how to use genkernel. _________________ Meh. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
kallamej Administrator
Joined: 27 Jun 2003 Posts: 4980 Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
|
Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 8:42 am Post subject: Re: Genkernel - blessing or curse? |
|
|
Sergio1704 wrote: | OK, let's put it like that,(old, known example): somebody gives you a car as a birthday present.
You have no idea what to do with it, you have never driven in your life.
So what is the first thing you do, do you learn how to repair the engine?
I suppose not, you learn how to drive it.
The kernel is the linux engine, as we all know.
You might want to learn how to compile it, but not for a starter! |
OK, so you want a car. Do you:Construct one from scratch, doing all the blue prints yourself, manufacture all the parts and assemble it. Get the blue prints from someone, manufacture the parts and assemble it. Buy all the parts and assemble it. Buy an already assembled car.
Now, which description does Gentoo fit? _________________ Please read our FAQ Forum, it answers many of your questions.
irc: #gentoo-forums on irc.libera.chat |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Daemonfly n00b
Joined: 31 Jan 2003 Posts: 46 Location: Pa - USA
|
Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 9:33 am Post subject: |
|
|
The idea for it is good, makes it easier for people who don't want to do custom compilings.
I tried it this past weekend for the hell of it and it just didn't work. Finally found out that it just never copied the bzImage over to /boot. Ended up just doing it the regular way.
Manually compiling isn't that hard, just follow the doc, and in-menu descriptions once you run make menuconfig, although there are a lot of options that don't have any description at all. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Sergio1704 n00b
Joined: 16 Aug 2003 Posts: 73
|
Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 10:52 am Post subject: |
|
|
Daemonfly wrote: | ... although there are a lot of options that don't have any description at all. |
Alas, as I also noticed. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Stieltje Apprentice
Joined: 03 Apr 2003 Posts: 158 Location: The land where the sky is black
|
Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2003 5:03 am Post subject: |
|
|
(Please, bear in mind that I am a little to drunk and talkative, and that eng. is not my default lang.)
well, I have compiled about 7 different kernels under gentoo (currently running mm-sources), I have learned to tweak them to get good performance as well.
ir I have learned the names of the different parts I need to get a nice sys. I have no greater understanding of what the different things do, or why. Maybe that will come later on.
one of the major things I like about gentoo/linux is typing my commands in a terminal window, rather than using a gui where the options are so limited that it feels like a straight jacket, or having to press ugly buttons whos images really do not tell anything about what they do. I really like to have my config file out in the open, not letting a program clutter it full of comments or whatever. Ok, I emerged kportage, it can be good for browsing portage, but I never use it to emerge stuff, I want control. I guess all the buggy windows apps, who's gui-windows might just collapse all of the sudden have made me that way.....
but this was about kernels, and kernel compiling. All I can say is, that as long as there is extensive documentation about what the different things do, and what errors that may occur if not used, or used, then do not change it, no gui, no automation.
hehe, came up with another thing.. give me a reason why there should be so many different *-sources if there is a script that does everything for you? Why try to move from gentoo-sources to ck-sources if you do not get to see the differences in the config, why bother to emerge mm-sources? etc.
And, If I had a sys that worked perfectly by default, whatever hardware I had installed, how much code would that be? the thing on specifiyng your hardware is that of the design idea that less code is better.
I'll just round off with that with the VERY nice layout of the kernel config of the 2.6-kernel, who the hell needs genkernel anyway. _________________ PCs nearly always come with Microsoft Windows as their operating systems, but the "OS," as it is called, can be changed to a non-Microsoft operating system with a little work. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Corporal Dan n00b
Joined: 29 Jul 2003 Posts: 32
|
Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2003 5:44 pm Post subject: Re: Genkernel - blessing or curse? |
|
|
kallamej wrote: | OK, so you want a car. Do you:Construct one from scratch, doing all the blue prints yourself, manufacture all the parts and assemble it. Get the blue prints from someone, manufacture the parts and assemble it. Buy all the parts and assemble it. Buy an already assembled car.
Now, which description does Gentoo fit? |
With portage and genkernel, it seems like Gentoo fits all of those descriptions. You can have as much or as little customization, automation, and autoconfiguration as you want.
I enjoy using Gentoo. If I have free time, I can tweak to my heart's content, mucking with kernel options and the like. If I don't, I want as much automation as possible and it to "just work". Later I can go back and tweak an already autoconfigured setup. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Ian Tindale n00b
Joined: 13 Dec 2002 Posts: 16 Location: London
|
Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2003 4:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Someone gives you a hamster for your birthday. Do you:
a] immediately perform an autopsy on it?
b] get on and use it. _________________ Ian Tindale |
|
Back to top |
|
|
The Mountain Man l33t
Joined: 03 Sep 2003 Posts: 643
|
Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2003 3:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I think Genkernel is a good thing. I've dinked around with computers ever since my brother bought a Commodore 64 in the early 80's and I have some Linux experience having run a Slackware box for about six months, but personally, I was happy that Gentoo offered an automatic kernel configuration program. Even as much computer experience as I have, it was a bit stressful compiling an OS from scratch so I was very thankful that when it came time to install the kernel, I didn't have to spend an hour or more going through "make menuconfig", scared to death that I'm going to break something. At that point in time, I just wanted a system that worked. I've since recompiled my kernel several times, adding hardware support and tweaking it for performance, but in the heat of installation, I was relieved that I didn't have to mess with it. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
nadamsieee Guru
Joined: 30 May 2003 Posts: 340 Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
|
Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2003 6:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
paranode wrote: | With Gentoo, given that the distribution is based on source, I think it's important to learn what you're doing since it's one of the steps to completing the install process. |
Emerge allows an end-user to glean the benifits of compliling from source without knowing anything about programming or the compile process. So I think it would be more appropriate to say that Gentoo is based on automation and performance (or perhaps automation without the loss of performance).
Just a thought _________________ nadams (at) ieee (dot) org |
|
Back to top |
|
|
nerdbert l33t
Joined: 09 Feb 2003 Posts: 981 Location: Berlin
|
Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2003 11:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
nadamsieee wrote: | Emerge allows an end-user to glean the benifits owithout knowing anything about programming or the compile process. So I think it would be more appropriate to say that Gentoo is based on automation and performance (or perhaps automation without the loss of performance).
Just a thought |
please tell me about a distro which requires some programming knowledge in order to install it (or tell me about a distro which is as hard to install and as easy as Gentoo to be maintained)?
Just a reply
I don't think computer are solely made for programmers. This is just some elitist thinking (regards to ebrostig - never thought I would use this term myself ) |
|
Back to top |
|
|
nadamsieee Guru
Joined: 30 May 2003 Posts: 340 Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
|
Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2003 12:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
nerdbert wrote: | please tell me about a distro which requires some programming knowledge in order to install it (or tell me about a distro which is as hard to install and as easy as Gentoo to be maintained)?
Just a reply |
I don't know of any; that's why Gentoo rules. _________________ nadams (at) ieee (dot) org |
|
Back to top |
|
|
nerdbert l33t
Joined: 09 Feb 2003 Posts: 981 Location: Berlin
|
Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2003 12:09 am Post subject: |
|
|
ok, guess we agree about this... bedtime for nerdbert (2:09 over here)... bye |
|
Back to top |
|
|
EvilN n00b
Joined: 13 Feb 2003 Posts: 47 Location: Stockholm, Sweden
|
Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2003 10:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
genkernel is of course a good thing.
I completley understand that people dont wnt to know everything thats going on in their computer.
most people that claim that "real users" should know that before they should be allowed to use gentoo..to thos users:
so you know how to rebuild and clean the carburator in your car (or your fuel njection system)? can you do a full maintenance of your engine and maybe even tune it a bit?
Do you know all the components involved in a broadcast system(hey your watching TV right?)
Do you understand and can modify all the DSP functions in your home cinema reciever and if you know how to set it all up, are you sure that you're doing it all perfectly?
Didnt think so either.
We are all on different levels of our usage of different things and helper apps are allways wellcome...especially for people that actually want to use something as quickly as possible.
And dont say use another distro in that case, that selection is NEVER up to anyone else than the user.
For those whining l337 users I think we should get rid of menuconfig and all help files too..yeah, and devfs and /etc/init.d and /etc/conf.d and so on and so on.
Gee, I just want to get KDE running with a decent speed an reliability.
Btw, personally I dont use genkernel but respect the people who find it usefull to them. _________________ Juniper Networks Certified Internet Associate
JNCIA-M #0090 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
ews99 n00b
Joined: 10 Aug 2003 Posts: 16
|
Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2003 10:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
I dislike RPM and loves the portages. That's why I use Gentoo. With Gentoo you're free, you can choose your system as you like.
If you want to use a full-gentoo system without time, just do a GRP installation with genkernel.
If you have a lot of time you could build your gentoo yourself. Fully optimized to your requirements.
That's why my router and workstation has a src-build gentoo, and my test machines use GRP. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Sergio1704 n00b
Joined: 16 Aug 2003 Posts: 73
|
Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2003 8:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
nerdbert wrote: |
I don't think computer are solely made for programmers. This is just some elitist thinking (regards to ebrostig - never thought I would use this term myself ) |
Very good point indeed. And now I now enough to tell you that developers/administrators with decades of experience HATE to have to spend hours to have an OS up and running.
That is why they will setup a server with RedHat, Suse or maybe Sol.
And they will install Debian with Libranet, something I know for sure.
Why should they waste hours of their very expensive time when some fellow developers have written a fast installation routine for them (and for everybody else)? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Sergio1704 n00b
Joined: 16 Aug 2003 Posts: 73
|
Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2003 8:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
nerdbert wrote: |
I don't think computer are solely made for programmers. This is just some elitist thinking (regards to ebrostig - never thought I would use this term myself ) |
Very good point indeed. And now I now enough to tell you that developers/administrators with decades of experience HATE to have to spend hours to have an OS up and running.
That is why they will setup a server with RedHat, Suse or maybe Sol.
And they will install Debian with Libranet, something I know for sure.
Why should they waste hours of their very expensive time when some fellow developers have written a fast installation routine for them (and for everybody else)? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Sergio1704 n00b
Joined: 16 Aug 2003 Posts: 73
|
Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2003 8:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
nerdbert wrote: |
I don't think computer are solely made for programmers. This is just some elitist thinking (regards to ebrostig - never thought I would use this term myself ) |
Very good point indeed. And now I now enough to tell you that developers/administrators with decades of experience HATE to have to spend hours to have an OS up and running.
That is why they will setup a server with RedHat, Suse or maybe Sol.
And they will install Debian with Libranet, something I know for sure.
Why should they waste hours of their very expensive time when some fellow developers have written a fast installation routine for them (and for everybody else)? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Sergio1704 n00b
Joined: 16 Aug 2003 Posts: 73
|
Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2003 9:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
nerdbert wrote: |
I don't think computer are solely made for programmers. This is just some elitist thinking (regards to ebrostig - never thought I would use this term myself ) |
Very good point indeed. And now I now enough to tell you that developers/administrators with decades of experience HATE to have to spend hours to have an OS up and running.
That is why they will setup a server with RedHat, Suse or maybe Sol.
And they will install Debian with Libranet, something I know for sure.
Why should they waste hours of their very expensive time when some fellow developers have written a fast installation routine for them (and for everybody else)? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Sergio1704 n00b
Joined: 16 Aug 2003 Posts: 73
|
Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2003 9:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Sorry, message posted several times because of server error |
|
Back to top |
|
|
auctmore n00b
Joined: 16 Nov 2003 Posts: 11 Location: Lint/Belgium
|
Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2003 5:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
[quote="neuron"]so how about my little idea, genkernel --graphical, maybe even force it.[/quote]
Very bad idea. Period.
One of my reasons to switch from SuSE(TM) to Gentoo(TM) is the obligation to do a text mode install! Ten minutes after a graphical setup with any distro my students don't remember where they should click to repeat my demo themselves because they didn't learn anything about why certain setup choices are made.
Moreover with each release SuSE -- like M$ (no TM) -- has developed a tendency to completely revamp the look and feel of a graphical installation as a sign of innovation. As if every semester we have to learn again what we already knew or at least have to find out were some option has been hidden this time. If I want to play hide and seek I simply take my children out in the open and forget about computers.
Need another reason? In my experience graphical installs tend to hang on certain combinations of display adapters and sound cards. In which case I had to fall back on a text mode install anyway! Even without a clue as to what caused the install to hangup because it could no longer tell me 8)
But your mileage will surely vary. _________________ Go back and get some real work done now. Tjop. Tjop. -- Inspector Frost |
|
Back to top |
|
|
filerba n00b
Joined: 16 Oct 2003 Posts: 29 Location: Oregon
|
Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2003 10:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
There's way too much automation in the world already. I mean, why should my car's turn signal turn off every time I turn just a little bit, just because people are too lazy to turn it off themselves. And the robots that made the car. And the machines that milk the cows. And computers... er, never mind. _________________ Open source software will drive the all purpose robot. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|