Genkernel - blessing or curse?

[echo6]

[filerba]

Um, I was being ironic. My sig should tell you that I'm down with the automation.
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[slarti`]

Gentoo is an advanced distribution. That makes it ideal for power users and intermediate users wanting to increase there knowledge, and to any daring noobs who understand the disclaimer we have: "If you break it, don't get in a hissy fit, it was you who chose Gentoo".

The number of times there are posts in the forums about the same problems with genkernel - most of them dupes - is enormous. Genkernel has that hanging error where you hang at boot... The only way around it is genkernel --config - in which case all point of genkernel is lost. I think that although it is nice to have choice there are a few factors:

• People who have never rolled their own are very daunted so will choose genkernel, even though it was probably within their ability to run make menuconfig.
  
• People who want that level of automation should be using another distro (arch for intermediates, fedora for beginners maybe).
  

I would have no problem with genkernel's existence if it didn't result in discontented noobs screaming "gentoo distributes broken kernels" or something like that. And in terms of support, it's more hassle than it's worth - as an automated tool, it's rather like debconf: more hassle than it's worth
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[rafo]

In http://www.gentoo.org/news/en/gwn/20031110-newsletter.xml there is mention of "portage-ng" which might be written in a language suitable for creating an expert system.

That sounds like quite an interesting idea, and maybe something that could work well for a "genkernel-ng" as well.

Let me first of all say that my personal kernel build count is as little as 4 (once with Red Hat, twice with genkernel and once with menuconfig). That said,

it should be possible to formalize and encode a collection of "kernel building knowledge", consisting of rules like "HW gadget X requires options Y and Z" and "option Q requires option P" and "option A is mutually exclusive with B" and "option R has the explanatory text T" and "option H is elaborated on at url U" and so on.

Given the kernel building knowledge collection it is easy to think of a wizard application that walks through the collection in an ordered fashion and asks the user for those things that cannot be deduced automatically. Menuconfig has a little bit of this in the sense that if you put an Y in a checkbox some other options may appear.

If the kernel being built is to run on the box where genkernel is run the process can be supported by some hardware detection that provides good defaults. Then again, if you are cross-building you shoud have the chance to say so and be prepared to tell things about the target hardware setup (along the way or in advance).

Not a trivial project this, but using a "genkernel-ng" should be even more fun to use than menuconfig, and faster and safer for those that are in a hurry, while still providing total control to those who want it.

Separating the "configuration engine" and the "knowledge collection" is a good thing also in the sense that anyone who doesn't like the available engine(s) can write her own. Plus, the knowledge collection might be adopted and maintained by the kernel developer community--presumably only a small portion of it is special to Gentoo Linux. Even the distros that provide pre-built kernels may use it for consistency verification.

Oh well .. in the meantime I guess we will be using menuconfig

[filerba]

I can't claim to be a genkernel expert since I couldn't get it to work and ended up compiling manually, but...

From the install doc:

[nerdbert]

[davecs]

After learning Linux using Mandrake for nearly a year, I thought I would try Gentoo. In the instructions, it said that genkernel would automatically tailor the kernel to my system.

It didn't. It did not load the USB printer or scanner modules. It completely left out iptables and all the other bits needed to build a firewall. Despite the fact that I was building from the Athlon-XP discs, it even build a bogstandard x86 kernel!

So there was the challenge. I had a running Mandrake system in another partition, so if I mess up, me and Gentoo are finished, and I continue with the lovely Mandy.

As it turned out, I was able to use the Kernel Configurator in KDE to prepare my .config file, and I made a few mistakes, but in the end I did get an optimised kernel running - a little too lightweight, the computer does not automatically power down and though the nforce-audio works, it cannot do MIDI as I neglected to add a few other modules. Still next time I have to add anything serious I will put these bits in.

The point is, I had to learn to configure a kernel or give up on Gentoo. However had I not been able to use genkernel in the first place, I would not have seen the sheer speed of Gentoo compared to Mandrake, and maybe would never have properly tried Gentoo.

Perhaps "genkernel" could be redesigned to ask a few questions to cover common alternatives, rather than the scarier way that menuconfig goes about it. Questions like:

Do you have a printer?
If YES is it plugged in to a USB socket or a standard printer socket?
Do you have a scanner?
If YES is it plugged in via the USB socket or a printer socket?
Is your computer a single machine which you will connect to the internet?

They would have covered the things that Genkernel clearly did not for me.

Anyway I shouldn't complain, I can compile the kernel and a week ago I could not!
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[Promit]

I installed Gentoo about a week ago. At that time, I used Genkernel.

Since then, I've recompiled manually a couple times. The kernel still has a lot of extra junk I don't need and have to filter out soon.

I learned to recompile my kernel in 5 minutes. It's not a big deal. Genkernel is nice if you don't know what you're doing, but if you really want a smooth Linux system you pretty much need to go with a manual configuration.

That said, Genkernel isn't a bad thing. It's not ideal, but it can help new users enormously.

[steel300]

I agree with the majority of what's been said. It is in the spirit of gentoo to give choices. As long as I can hack out my own kernel, I'm glad we have such choices.
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[Random Task]

I actually think that genkernel is a good thing.

I'm not a noob when it comes to compiling kernels (sure there's stuff that I leave out from time to time but that's part of the learning process) but I'm not saying I'm an expert either!

I find that genkernel provides you with a pretty good cornerstone from which you can work to create a customized/small/whatever kernel config.

I can't count the number of times I've started a kernel config, made and rebooted to find out that I forgot something!

With genkernel, I start with full automation but after I boot and find out that everything works I try to strip away as much as possible, if I break something and it doesn't want to boot all I have to do is go back to my genkernel version and tweak the config back to a usable state.

That's how I'm able to run a 2.6 kernel now with little/no huge problems!

Just my opinion obviously
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[echo6]

I take it that genkernel work with 2.6 kernel then?

I've been compiling the 2.6 kernel manually unaware of this.

[Random Task]

Yeah it works quite well, however it tries to put everything in as modules that aren't _required_ for system operation.

for example:

Every network card available to man is compiled as a module so more often than not you'll get a bunch of your /lib/modules/<kernel version> directories filled with modules you'd never need.

But I think it is a good stepping stone!
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[nerdbert]

[Random Task]

With genkernel you only have to type genkernel in the source directory of your choice rather than have to go through everything and press 'm'

Seriously though, I find it a great learning tool. I find that usually the things it puts in as _required_ are close to what I need in my system anyway.

I find it especially informative if you have just moved from 2.4.x to 2.6.x because some options have been moved around (although for the better, I find the 2.6.x kernels to be better 'organized' in the menuconfig 'gui') and some options are even new/updated.

I'd rather have a working kernel then experiment from there rather than the other way around.

But again, everyone will have their own opinion
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If you can't kill something with that, it ain't supposed to die...

You're so drunk you're seeing double...
I've got two guns, one for each of ya!
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[Athas]

I don't consider myself a newbie at compiling kernels manually, and for testing-kernels, I do the usual make dep && make bzImage module modules_install dance, but for my working-kernel (gaming-sources, btw) I use genkernel --config, simply because I'm too lazy to copy it in place manually

I never tried compiling a kernel with the options that genkernel set, but from what I saw the first time I did genkernel --config, my system would be pretty much unbootable

Genkernel - the perfect tool for lazy users
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[nerdbert]

[Aurisor]

I always ran Windows, since the 3.1 days. I had tried linux a few times, but I always got scared off because of the difficulty associated with device drivers...I was used to the windows "hardware manager" approach. I never made it to compiling my kernel.

I had given up on linux for a few years before I installed Gentoo on the recommendation of a friend a few months ago, mostly because I was looking for a more stable and open programming environment.

When I installed Gentoo, I used genkernel on gentoo-sources and went on my merry way...as I learned more and more, I built more kernels...because I had a working system, I was free to spend a few hours learning about the kernel, reboot into some new ones, and then just go back to a stable kernel for my everyday work. Now, of course, I never use Genkernel. In fact, I'm running 2.6-test9-mm4, with a .config I tweaked from scratch.

The point of this all is that in order to be good an operating system has to be able to "just work" while at the same time maintaining infinite customizability. If it weren't for genkernel I might have given up on the whole Gentoo thing. Offering tools that help the newbies can only benefit everyone so long as we don't compromise the Gentoo experience for the hardcore user.

[oldsk00l]

I apologize for my attitude before.

I was the pissy newbie at first. However, the patience and straightforwardness turned me right around. I am now getting to be quite capable with Gentoo.

It's humbling, and it makes you fully aware of what Linux and OSS is about. The elitists of Gentoo are rarely arrogant. Yet in the Mandrake and RH camps, elitists really can make a person feel like a plebe.

Gentoo's camp is never like that. I like what the site admin said, voluntary help, if you get it, someone wanted you to get it! That's the only thing that's going to work these days....

[GurliGebis]

Well, as long as I still can do a normal make menuconfig, and compile it my self, I really don't care, if genkernel can help someone, then it's good for them, but I just don't want to be forced to use it.
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[nerdbert]

[GurliGebis]

[echo6]

[nerdbert]