Genkernel - blessing or curse?

paranode · l33t Joined: 06 Mar 2003 Posts: 679 Location: Texas

I'm seeing a lot of pissy newbies getting mad because genkernel doesn't work for them. This is exactly the problem I feared with all the talk about people wanting to turn Gentoo into an automated installation and have the kernel configured for them. If this trend continues we're going to turn into another distro were people don't really know what they're doing. It's great that people are flocking to try Gentoo but I think we should keep the integrity with which it started and not fall down a slippery slope towards automation. It can be a challenge installing Gentoo but that's the point. It's a learning experience and I think you should learn how to compile and configure a kernel if you are going to use Linux, especially Gentoo. All this griping about "wah, gentoo blows dood, the kernel doesn't work, blah" gets on my nerves, sorry for the rant.

What do you seasoned users think?
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ruronikenshin83 · n00b Joined: 25 Mar 2003 Posts: 42

I think genkernel is a good idea for newbies.

I know I feared playing around with my kernel when I started out, and it is rather frustrating to go through all of the installation procedures so nicely laid out by Gentoo Documentation and then realize that you can't boot because you foobar'd your kernel.

So I guess its ok, but I'm never gonna use it.

Also, in the tradition of Gentoo, it's nice that people have options if they don't feel like compiling the kernel themselves...

jsleeper · Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2003 4:13 pm Post subject:

I like the idea of genkernel, though i would never now use it. I've been using Gentoo for about 7 months now, and before that I used another Linux and never before configured and compiled my own kernel. That was the largest hurdle for me - configuring the kernel so that it's right for me and my machine... Because of my willingness to learn more and perserverence through the install and kernel compile, I now know SO much more than I used to - it just might not be a hurdle that some people would like to leap when learning LInux (esp if this is their first try at it). Some people would be happy with a pre-configured kernel forever; others will catch the 'gentoo bug' and end up compiling their own kernels when they learn more.

$0.02
joe

Paranode - i like your sig... i only drive manual trannies, and i've always thought of it the same way.
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masseya · Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2003 4:20 pm Post subject:

I see no problem whatsoever in attempting to broaden the user base of Gentoo by reaching out to less technically inclined people so long as the core ideas behind Gentoo remain. If it is difficult for you or anyone else to deal with these 'pissy newbies,' I would recommend that you don't deal with them. That is the beauty of a volunteer support forum. The people who want to help can help. Also, everyone receiving help is getting it from someone who wants to help. Personally, I would much rather not get help if it's forced help since that is, in fact, rarely helpful.
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paranode · l33t Joined: 06 Mar 2003 Posts: 679 Location: Texas

scriptkiddie · l33t Joined: 30 Mar 2003 Posts: 955

i agree with paranode.. I want to help people learn how to do things, but when all they can do is complain about how it doens't work and they need it working now, what reason do we have to help them?

I personally have not used genkernel but I like the Idea behind it for newbies, I guess what I am saying is whatever helps get more people using gentoo is good, but there have to be limits for how much people can complain about the same thing.

jsleeper · Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2003 5:49 pm Post subject:

sephtin · n00b Joined: 02 May 2003 Posts: 26

what's so bad about a little automation?
I can't imagine emerge -U world has always been perfect.. *shrug*.

I always script the kernel build. Just kick it off, and I'm off to bed.
Next morning, I rename my old kernel, copy the new one to /boot, and reboot... *shrug*

Two things I wish would have been done differently:
1) they didn't try to make a drastic change using init.rd.
2) They wouldn't have replaced the standard kernel config file with the one mod'ed to be more like the boot disk. I back mine up, but was shocked that simply emerging genkernel overwrote my kernel config file

In the long run, it will make life easier... just getting over the "Change is BAD" is the toughest part.

I also agree that it shouldn't be the *only* option available. Taking away the ability to compile your own kernel doesn't seem to be very gentoo'ish.

John

Bonkie · Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2003 10:16 pm Post subject:

my opinion: its a nice and useful tool, but I'll never use it though.

Liathus · Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2003 10:43 pm Post subject:

I think genkernel is a usefull tool. I prefer to make my own configs, but there are a lot of users out there that just want it to work. In my opinion thats ok. We don't want to scare users off before they even get the os installed do we?

I think that the installation of a OS, any OS, should be as simple as possible. That doesn't mean that it can have advanced features. It just means that it shouldn't be difficult for someone with little or no knowledge of the system to get it installed.

Once they get the system up and running they will still have plenty of learning to do. Plus they might just decide to go back and install things the hard way to get better performance.

So my opinion is anything that makes it easier is good... as long as it doesn't take away my ability to do things differently!

Mystilleef · Guru Joined: 27 Apr 2003 Posts: 561 Location: Earth

Hello Gents,

I'm indifferent about genkernel. However, I do agree that every GNU/Linux home user should learn how to compile the kernel. I mean, come on, it's the heart of GNU/Linux.

The current ignorant trend arising, where computer users should be able to use a computer without any knowledge about computers is hurtful not helpful. Education and knowledge about computers and their operations should be promoted not inhibited.

Regards,

Mystilleef
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Raoul_Duke · Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2003 10:14 am Post subject:

I think that linux is about choice.......as long as genkernel doesn't stop me compiling my own in the manner i've been doing for the last year, i don't mind.

However, Gentoo is pulling in a lot of newbies these days and some aren't prepared to put the work in. Personally i believe that someone who just whinges that 'genkernel is sh*t' probably wouldn't react any differently to a failed manual kernel compile.

Having n00bs who don't like the idea of having to learn is a reality we have to live with

My advice? Help people who want to be helped.......people who are serious about wanting to use Gentoo will 'get over themselves' and understand the learning curve involved. The rest will fade away back to windows/mandrake/redhat until such time as they want to try again and hopefully have a more humble attitude!

We all know what a good reputation these support forums have.......i don't see why the arrival of a lot of newbies should change that.

If we promote (as we already do) the do-it-by-hand-you'll-learn-more approach to the youngsters it'll rub off on them. In fact i can testify that it happened to me a little bit. I installed using stage3 and didn't set any use flags or cflags......after a few months of absorbing 'gentoo culture' i was eager to re-install with all my new knowledge. Now i love a good session of hacking my gentoo box

Just my slightly sleepy opinion :wink:

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HeruNoleth · n00b Joined: 24 Mar 2003 Posts: 15 Location: Denmark

When first installing Gentoo and i had to, for the first time ever, configure my own kernel i really liked it because there is no bs about what is going on. You can see what you are doing and its not hidden in a lot af dumb questions.

But I see genkernel is a nice alternative. Not sure i would use it though. If people wish to be helped during the config stage I totally understand, its always hard the first time!
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sephtin · n00b Joined: 02 May 2003 Posts: 26

trajedi · n00b Joined: 16 Jul 2003 Posts: 73 Location: Dallas

Raoul_Duke · Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:34 pm Post subject:

I think the sensible answer to this riddle has to be......new ideas are always worth trying as long as the old way of doing it is still available.
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masseya · Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2003 5:25 pm Post subject:

idl · Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2003 5:58 pm Post subject:

Gentoo IMO is a distro for power users, people wanting to learn about how the system works and why. Lots of Linux newbie are attracted to Gentoo because of the praises it gets from the power users. Most of these newbies (seen as they have never used Linux much before), want an easy ride and want to start enjoying all the things Gentoo has been praised for, straight away. Well, I'm sorry it just doesn't work like that.. or atleast shouldn't.

I think genkernel was a bad idea because it's making Gentoo available to newbies who are unwilling or don't have the urge to learn. I'm not trying to say Gentoo isn't a distro for newbies, I'm saying is not a distro for newbies who want Linux up and running, no questions asked. Newbies willing and wanting to learn would not complain about kernel configuration.

Thats the way I see it anyway

fbreuer · Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2003 6:05 pm Post subject:

I have compiled a kernel or two in my time as a GNU/Linux user but I cannot say that I have mastered the process. Each time it took me a very long time of research and guesswork to find out which options I need to select to get my system running and to keep the kernel from panicking.

I also have to say: I didn't learn very much in the process of compiling a kernel by hand, much less than I learn solving other gentoo problems. The reasons for this are:

I do not know what many kernel options mean or how to find that out.

Often, I have no way of deducing from my background knowledge how to get a specific feature working.

So how does this relate to genkernel? Well, I have not tried genkernel though I definitely will. But what I would find far more useful than a script which automates kernel-generation is a single document which explains at least one but preferrably both of the following:

What does each of the (most common) kernel options mean?

If I want feature XY, what options do I have to enable (and why)?

Such a piece of documentation would make compiling a kernel less daunting and more educational. (More gentooish so to speak :wink:

) Who can tell me where to find such a document? Alternatively: Who will help me write one?

Chiron · Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2003 6:25 pm Post subject:

Chiron · Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2003 6:32 pm Post subject:

masseya · Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2003 7:50 pm Post subject:

ctenet · Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2003 8:19 pm Post subject:

I think the idea of genkernel is good, but I like having more control.
If it helps newbies, it should stay, but remove support for the "classical" way and count me out.
I like Linux distros being appealing to newbies, though I don't think Gentoo is that kind.
Kernel configuration can be intimidating exen to semi-experienced users.
I was always afraid to do it until a few weeks ago (I've been using GNU/Linux (mainly Red Hat) for three years.), when friend of installed Gentoo for me.
I paid close attention and realized it isn't so hard.
I've probably compiled the kernel about 10 times since, tweaking it more and more, and adding new features to experiment with.

idl · Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2003 9:32 pm Post subject:

fbreuer · Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2003 9:35 pm Post subject: