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Tony0945
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Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 5127
Location: Illinois, USA
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 Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:53 am Post subject: |
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From the document:
| Quote: | | This is a reinvention how distributions work, and hence needs great support from the distributions. |
No, this is how closed source distributions work. Since RedHat became a for profit company, they have drifted away from open source and now want to be the next Microsoft or Apple.
I'm not a religious guy, but I'm reminded of a Bible verse from Sunday School many decades ago.
| Quote: |
Mark 8:36King James Version
For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
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Linux is in danger of losing its soul. |
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Goverp
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Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 2196
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| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 8:54 am Post subject: |
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No, Red Hat is in danger of losing its soul.
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aidanjt
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Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Posts: 1118
Location: Rep. of Ireland
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| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 11:18 am Post subject: |
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| Goverp wrote: | | No, Red Hat is in danger of losing its soul. |
Red Hat lost its soul years ago. Now it's infecting everything.
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| juniper wrote: | | you experience political reality dilation when travelling at american political speeds. it's in einstein's formulas. it's not their fault. |
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Sulman
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Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Posts: 63
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| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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Something's not right here.
Poettering is building a Cathedral, and he is designing it in such a way as to say "sure it's modular, it's made of thousands of bricks." This aggressive standardisation is a solution in search of a problem; Redhat's customers want it, so we all have to have it? F**k that. |
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tld
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Joined: 09 Dec 2003
Posts: 1850
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| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Sulman wrote: | | This aggressive standardisation is a solution in search of a problem; Redhat's customers want it, so we all have to have it? F**k that. |
Not sure I'd agree that Redhat's customers want it. Certainly not their RHEL customers....at least not any that have their head anywhere other than their asses. I think it's pretty common knowledge that systemd's features are purely Desktop oriented...and anyone with a clue knows that on servers it's main feature will be to expose the server to a much higher attack risk for nothing.
It's really just some desktop users and Redhat themselves that want this mess. |
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Sulman
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Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Posts: 63
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| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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| tld wrote: | | Sulman wrote: | | This aggressive standardisation is a solution in search of a problem; Redhat's customers want it, so we all have to have it? F**k that. |
Not sure I'd agree that Redhat's customers want it. Certainly not their RHEL customers....at least not any that have their head anywhere other than their asses. I think it's pretty common knowledge that systemd's features are purely Desktop oriented...and anyone with a clue knows that on servers it's main feature will be to expose the server to a much higher attack risk for nothing.
It's really just some desktop users and Redhat themselves that want this mess. |
Did you read this? It is quite extensive, but there's some crystal clear hints of what Poettering is thinking.
| Lennart Poettering wrote: | | The classic Linux distribution scheme is frequently not what end users want, either. Many users are used to app markets like Android, Windows or iOS/Mac have. Markets are a platform that doesn't package, build or maintain software like distributions do, but simply allows users to quickly find and download the software they need, with the app vendor responsible for keeping the app updated, secured, and all that on the vendor's release cycle. Users tend to be impatient. They want their software quickly, and the fine distinction between trusting a single distribution or a myriad of app developers individually is usually not important for them. |
He's not talking about Linux/UNIX. He's talking about an analogue of Windows (System imaging? Really? As in Windows Deployment Services? I think even most RHEL shops will use Kickstart which is a scripted install...) and some sort of App store.
I got into Linux to get away from this shit. |
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depontius
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Joined: 05 May 2004
Posts: 3525
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| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Sulman wrote: |
He's not talking about Linux/UNIX. He's talking about an analogue of Windows (System imaging? Really? As in Windows Deployment Services? I think even most RHEL shops will use Kickstart which is a scripted install...) and some sort of App store.
I got into Linux to get away from this shit. |
I posted this over on one of the other systemd threads, but here's a short version.
I believe that the rise of systemd represents the conquest-by-demographics of GNU/Linux. I'm using the RMS term GNU/Linux most specifically and advisedly, here.
Some time in the past few years Linux became cool - an attractive place to go investigate, and don't forget that developers are more often early adopters than plain users. For however much of history, the Linux market share has been somewhere just shy of 1%, and that's part of the problem here. Another part of the problem is that these people weren't avoiding or fleeing Windows like most of us old-timers - they like it, but were checking out something new.
The problem is that it doesn't take many of these new "Windows immigrants" to outnumber the old-timers, because we've always been so small and they've always been so big. Since they're not fleeing their culture, they're bringing it with them. Now we see the results, and even with the small numbers so far we've been swamped out.
My suggestion... find a hidey hole, like Gentoo or Slakware, and keep ourselves alive. BTW, Linux is a kernel, not an OS. We need to keep a viable decent userspace alive on top of that kernel. We also need to learn from them - there are some good ideas there, just generally poorly implemented. The OpenBSD systemd-interop stuff is key.
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steveL
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Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 9:58 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I originally intended to discuss this at the Linux Plumbers Conference (which I assumed was the right forum for this kind of major plumbing level improvement), and at linux.conf.au, but there was no interest in my session submissions there... |
| roki942 wrote: | | Seems that went over his head |
Lol: thanks for that gem.. I needed a laugh :-) |
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chaosesqueteam
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Joined: 11 Sep 2014
Posts: 31
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| Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 6:01 am Post subject: |
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[quote="depontius"] | Sulman wrote: |
My suggestion... find a hidey hole, like Gentoo or Slakware, and keep ourselves alive. BTW, Linux is a kernel, not an OS. We need to keep a viable decent userspace alive on top of that kernel. We also need to learn from them - there are some good ideas there, just generally poorly implemented. The OpenBSD systemd-interop stuff is key. |
Totally agree. Exactly.
This is why I grabbed the debian wheezy source DVDs.
The pre gnome 3 days are the best unix like Linux has to offer( gtk2 era)
Everything I want over my 13 yrs of Linux in software is there.
Let's fork that era and avoid the error.
We need to separate from the unix haters.
Not be dragged along.
They are attempting a hostile coup.
And succeeding so far.
Take their last good code and use it, regardless of their hate and indignation |
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Greens
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Joined: 23 Aug 2013
Posts: 27
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| Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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The split between /foo and /usr/foo is dumb though.
/usr doesn't need to exist.
/opt doesn't need to exist
We don't need both /media /mnt and /run/media.
Other than that I think things generally make sense. I just wish there was a way to cleanly/easily see every file a program installed, while still keping the functionality of the way it's done now. |
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steveL
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Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Greens wrote: | | The split between /foo and /usr/foo is dumb though. |
No you. ;p
| Quote: |
/usr doesn't need to exist.
/opt doesn't need to exist
We don't need both /media /mnt and /run/media.
Other than that I think things generally make sense. I just wish there was a way to cleanly/easily see every file a program installed, while still keping the functionality of the way it's done now. |
I just wish you'd provide reasoning with your opinion.
But that would require you to understand why things have been split for the past 40 years. |
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Tony0945
Watchman
Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 5127
Location: Illinois, USA
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| Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I just wish there was a way to cleanly/easily see every file a program installed, while still keping the functionality of the way it's done now. |
equery f <ebuild name> i.e. equery f www-client/firefox-bin |
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steveL
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Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 10:26 am Post subject: |
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Oh missed that aspect, good point tony0945.
Another tool to do that (quicker, useful in scripts) is qlist from app-portage/portage-utils, eg:
The inverse would be qfile /some/path
See man q and man qlist etc, after install.
would be the format used in scripts to find installed packages with 'portage' anywhere in full CPV. |
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gwr
Apprentice
Joined: 19 Nov 2014
Posts: 194
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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| What will happen next? Will /etc be replaced with a giant binary blob? |
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Ant P.
Watchman
Joined: 18 Apr 2009
Posts: 6920
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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| steveL wrote: | | would be the format used in scripts to find installed packages with 'portage' anywhere in full CPV. |
Bah, that's not riced enough!
| Code: | for PF in $(find /var/db/pkg/ -mindepth 2 -maxdepth 2 -name '*portage*'); do
echo ${PF#*pkg/}
done
awk '{print $2}' /var/db/pkg/sys-apps/portage-*/CONTENTS |
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mv
Watchman
Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 6780
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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| gwr wrote: | | What will happen next? Will /etc be replaced with a giant binary blob? |
Concerning gnome configuration, this has happened already.
The main goal of the systemd/policykit idiots is to make this act as the system configuration. |
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gwr
Apprentice
Joined: 19 Nov 2014
Posts: 194
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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| mv wrote: | | Concerning gnome configuration, this has happened already. |
I don't use gnome, so I had to go and look this up. Wow, good luck fixing system configurations when the configuration tool is broken. |
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ct85711
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Joined: 27 Sep 2005
Posts: 1791
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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except here's the kicker, it's NOTABUG if it doesn't work  |
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steveL
Watchman
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 6:52 am Post subject: |
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| Ant P. wrote: | | Bah, that's not riced enough! ;) |
Urgh, ofc it is: it's always quicker to run a util written to do the exact task! ;-)
Though I'll concede that there is some dodgy code in there, I haven't looked for a few years, and it's plenty fast enough, so why bother?
| ct85711 wrote: | | except here's the kicker, it's NOTABUG if it doesn't work :) |
Lul. "So Alice looked at the Hatter, and the Hatter looked at the mouse.." |
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Ant P.
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Joined: 18 Apr 2009
Posts: 6920
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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| steveL wrote: | | Ant P. wrote: | | Bah, that's not riced enough! ;) |
Urgh, ofc it is: it's always quicker to run a util written to do the exact task! ;-) |
Alright, alright... qfile is a single C binary and a bash loop isn't gonna beat that.
(and they're both several orders of magnitude faster than "cave search --name portage -m '*/*::installed'"...) |
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gwr
Apprentice
Joined: 19 Nov 2014
Posts: 194
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Just wait long enough, systems will absorb a package manager and solve all your problems. |
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steveL
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Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 4:22 am Post subject: |
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| gwr wrote: | | Just wait long enough, systems will absorb a package manager and solve all your problems. |
That was the original plan after dbus (PackageKit) but no distros were interested. Guess where this is heading.. ;) |
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