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Do you want systemd as default on Gentoo? |
I <3 systemd!! I want Gentoo to switch!! |
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12% |
[ 26 ] |
Get that horse-crap away from Gentoo as far as possible! |
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87% |
[ 186 ] |
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Total Votes : 212 |
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creaker l33t
Joined: 14 Jul 2012 Posts: 651
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Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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krinn wrote: |
And please people, name it correctly : it's "systemd" no uppercase anywhere, a good reminder to help is that you also don't uppercase "shit". |
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depontius Advocate
Joined: 05 May 2004 Posts: 3509
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Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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krinn - "Systemd" was at the front of the sentence, and was capitalized for that reason.
Other point... In the whole recent systemd thread on LKML it's interesting to note that nobody came in telling those that preferred not to use systemd that they were a bunch of 'tards, as has happened to me on other places.
I will say two good things about systemd...
1 - With systemd-logind it's possible to have rootless X/Wayland. That's part of why I'm looking forward to the OpenBSD workalikes.
2 - There is some sense in monitoring daemons from PID-1, because that's the only place that gets their death-signal, and they can be monitored without polling.
Neither thing ties specifically to systemd, just saying that there is some conceptual good in there. _________________ .sigs waste space and bandwidth |
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Anon-E-moose Watchman
Joined: 23 May 2008 Posts: 6102 Location: Dallas area
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Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 12:11 am Post subject: |
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LoL, saellaven _________________ PRIME x570-pro, 3700x, 6.1 zen kernel
gcc 13, profile 17.0 (custom bare multilib), openrc, wayland |
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NeddySeagoon Administrator
Joined: 05 Jul 2003 Posts: 54306 Location: 56N 3W
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Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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saellaven,
This thread is good until it decends into Pantomimie. _________________ Regards,
NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail. |
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saellaven l33t
Joined: 23 Jul 2006 Posts: 648
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Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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NeddySeagoon wrote: | saellaven,
This thread is good until it decends into Pantomimie. |
Wouldn't it be better to have a stickied thread somewhere explaining the situation? Every 2-4 weeks, the topic comes up again, debate goes on for a few pages, the thread gets locked and falls off the first couple screens. Then someone new that just suddenly had the idea that systemd is the bestest thing ever and Gentoo should adopt it as the default init system, complete with the same rehashed reasoning we've already dealt with before, starts yet another discussion and the whole cycle repeats.
It's beyond tiresome... yet I, and I'm sure others, feel the need to step in and repeat those same explanations over and over again, because if we don't speak up, Gentoo will likely be steamrolled just like the other distros. Given how often the subject comes up, there really needs to be some stickied type of FAQ about systemd NOT being nor becoming the default on Gentoo. |
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NeddySeagoon Administrator
Joined: 05 Jul 2003 Posts: 54306 Location: 56N 3W
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Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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saellaven,
Most readers don't look at the first page of a long sticky.
I'll cite the grub sticky as an example, where the same issues are raised over again.
Speaking up is not sufficient - efforts to keep the old ways alive are required. _________________ Regards,
NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail. |
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jonathan183 Guru
Joined: 13 Dec 2011 Posts: 318
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Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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NeddySeagoon wrote: | saellaven,
This thread is good until it decends into Pantomimie. |
Oh no it isn't |
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Ant P. Watchman
Joined: 18 Apr 2009 Posts: 6920
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Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 2:08 am Post subject: |
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depontius wrote: | I will say two good things about systemd...
1 - With systemd-logind it's possible to have rootless X/Wayland. That's part of why I'm looking forward to the OpenBSD workalikes.
2 - There is some sense in monitoring daemons from PID-1, because that's the only place that gets their death-signal, and they can be monitored without polling.
Neither thing ties specifically to systemd, just saying that there is some conceptual good in there. |
1) Sane file permissions in /dev/ would also allow rootless X/Wayland and other programs that operate on KMS/device files directly like RetroArch and DirectFB. And with absolutely zero runtime overhead. Guess whose daemon was supposed to manage those permissions and doesn't?
2) Unless something truly horrific has happened to the state of Linux's POSIX compatibility recently (remember when we could code to standards instead of browser^Winit sniffing?), daemontools/runit already perform that function perfectly well without hardcoded PIDs, using only the magic of signal 17. |
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tld Veteran
Joined: 09 Dec 2003 Posts: 1816
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Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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Yea...I don't get it. I didn't vote in the poll obviously, as it's missing the only correct third option: "Gentoo is all about choice". It's there if you want it, as is just about everything else available in the Linux world, and there's even a profile for it for your convenience...so what's the problem? Gentoo doesn't "switch" to anything...the user does.
I can't help but notice that that's the position taken by just about all of us that happen to not want anything to do with systemd. I'm beginning to think that a lot of the die hard systems fans actually somehow have a problem with the very fact that you can choose not to use it. That is that Gentoo, being a source based distro unlike others, can allow you to make that choice. It's certainly starting to look that way.
I'd seen that open letter rant on the LKML...hadn't seen the reply about switching to Gentoo though...thanks for that.
That link about new systemd features...good lord...talk about feature creep. They really are trying to create an entire OS in the init process that just happens to be running on top of the Linux kernel aren't they. Pure insanity...the whole thing. Stuff like the insane binary log format used to surprise me...it doesn't any more. The more I read about those folks I'm more surprised they haven't added a system registry. |
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NeddySeagoon Administrator
Joined: 05 Jul 2003 Posts: 54306 Location: 56N 3W
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Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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tld,
Its only a matter of time until systemd absorbs the kernel. Then Red Hat can go their own way.
Oh wait - they already have a huge kernel patch set ... _________________ Regards,
NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail. |
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krinn Watchman
Joined: 02 May 2003 Posts: 7470
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Greens n00b
Joined: 23 Aug 2013 Posts: 27
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Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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A lot of things don't work properly without systemd anymore, you're just going to run into more problems that need to be hacked around if you don't switch is the way I see it. systemd consumed a lot of important functionality and killed a lot of things with it (like consolekit, which is now broken abandoware), even if you don't like that (I personally do agree with most of the development choices of systemd), I just don't want to be the one sitting there trying to hack around everything they do.
I think it should be the default init system for gentoo for these reasons, although it's not a big deal, gentoo makes it easy enough to switch. |
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tld Veteran
Joined: 09 Dec 2003 Posts: 1816
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Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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Greens wrote: | I think it should be the default init system for gentoo for these reasons, although it's not a big deal, gentoo makes it easy enough to switch. |
That's just it. It takes 2-1/2 seconds it takes you to do "eselect profile set". What's the problem? |
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tld Veteran
Joined: 09 Dec 2003 Posts: 1816
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Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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Greens wrote: | A lot of things don't work properly without systemd anymore, you're just going to run into more problems that need to be hacked around if you don't switch is the way I see it. | Not if you do what I do and just stop using anything that requires that stuff.
There are almost always alternatives to programs that do...and I really think there are enough of us that feel that way to make such projects continue. Why on earth would Gentoo, a distribution intended primarily around choice, default to an init system that does everything in the developers power to eradicate it?
I think there's going to be an increase in Gentoo use for this very reason. |
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tld Veteran
Joined: 09 Dec 2003 Posts: 1816
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Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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krinn wrote: | http://0pointer.de/public/gnomeasia2014.pdf
tld : just jump at page 19 and i think page 78 have a good hint too. |
Oh ffs: "Unifying pointless differences between distributions".
Translated: "Obsoleting pointless non-RH distributions". |
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The Doctor Moderator
Joined: 27 Jul 2010 Posts: 2678
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Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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To be fair, there are many advantages in having a uniform platform to develop for.
However, using vendor lock in to create the uniform platform is just plain wrong. For example, udev was (and is) the standard /dev manager because it works better than the alternatives. Given this people used it.
Things like pulsaudio never really quite worked as well as the alternatives so it isn't the standard. Systemd is simply trying to group things like udev with things like pulseaudio in the name of standardizing. This isn't a good way to standardize a system. The 'standard' should simply be the collection of programs that do their jobs better than any other programs.
As for a standard init, I fail to see the point at all. Who cares how udev or iptables was started as long as it was? _________________ First things first, but not necessarily in that order.
Apologies if I take a while to respond. I'm currently working on the dematerialization circuit for my blue box. |
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szatox Advocate
Joined: 27 Aug 2013 Posts: 3150
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Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | As for a standard init, I fail to see the point at all. Who cares how udev or iptables was started as long as it was? | I see a point like "every init system requires some set of informations about services it starts", which means every time a new init system joins the game someone has to write scripts that would allow it atcually run services.
I don't see a point in reinventing the wheel though. We already have several init systems that actually work. It seems it would be a better idea to add a supervisor feature to existing init. Even better idea woudl be simply writing a code that does not require babysitter/supervisor |
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Shamus397 Apprentice
Joined: 03 Apr 2005 Posts: 218 Location: Ur-th
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Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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Greens wrote: | A lot of things don't work properly without systemd anymore, you're just going to run into more problems that need to be hacked around if you don't switch is the way I see it.. |
I keep seeing this thrown around a lot, and without a shred of evidence to back it up. And my gut tells me that it just isn't true. The fact that the Funtoo guys got rid of *all* the systemd hooks *without* losing any functionality alone proves it to me.
This "SystemD is the Borg, you will be assimilated" meme is just pure nonsense--unless we collectively choose to believe it *and* let it happen. |
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asturm Developer
Joined: 05 Apr 2007 Posts: 8938
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Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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Shamus397 wrote: | The fact that the Funtoo guys got rid of *all* the systemd hooks *without* losing any functionality alone proves it to me. |
"I keep seeing this thrown around a lot, and without a shred of evidence to back it up. And my gut tells me that it just isn't true."
I tend to believe the Gnome maintainers in that case.
Not that I care, not using Gnome. You can't deny the fact, though, that *kit, upower and whatnot are partly unmaintained, removed functionality etc. in favor of systemd that will make it less and less comfortable to run a desktop (read: laptop) system for the rest of us. And I don't see anyone standing up and taking over those deprecated upstream parts, endless talk, yes. |
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mackal Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 04 Aug 2011 Posts: 92
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Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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szatox wrote: | which means every time a new init system joins the game someone has to write scripts that would allow it atcually run services. |
Part of the point of systemd was to remove a lot of the extra cruft that was in a SysV init script. A standardized SysV init script had about 150 lines that was mostly just copied and pasted. Systemd people analyzed the SysV init scripts (at least on Fedora) and programmed these into systemd and are selectable by setting the Type variable. You'll also see people be like "look at OpenBSD's *insert some service* init script! it's super readable!" But then you look at what it's doing and it's just small because everything else is in some other file
OpenRC scripts are a lot better than SysV init scripts, but still more than systemd services.
genstorm wrote: | Not that I care, not using Gnome. You can't deny the fact, though, that *kit, upower and whatnot are partly unmaintained, removed functionality etc. in favor of systemd that will make it less and less comfortable to run a desktop (read: laptop) system for the rest of us. And I don't see anyone standing up and taking over those deprecated upstream parts, endless talk, yes. |
This is also a good point, and most of those projects saw maintenance from systemd people before they either got absorbed or replaced by systemd. |
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tld Veteran
Joined: 09 Dec 2003 Posts: 1816
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Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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mackal wrote: | OpenRC scripts are a lot better than SysV init scripts, but still more than systemd services. | Personally I think the OpenRC scripts are 1000 times better. What kills me is that RH/Fedora/CentOS have always had some of the most horrific init scripts around, plus the ugliness of all the chkconfig stuff, and that seems to get toted around as one of the justifications for systemd. I guess that all fits with those developers' M.O. of taking credit for fixing stuff they break . |
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Sulman n00b
Joined: 15 Feb 2014 Posts: 63
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Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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mackal wrote: | szatox wrote: | which means every time a new init system joins the game someone has to write scripts that would allow it atcually run services. |
Part of the point of systemd was to remove a lot of the extra cruft that was in a SysV init script. A standardized SysV init script had about 150 lines that was mostly just copied and pasted. Systemd people analyzed the SysV init scripts (at least on Fedora) and programmed these into systemd and are selectable by setting the Type variable. You'll also see people be like "look at OpenBSD's *insert some service* init script! it's super readable!" But then you look at what it's doing and it's just small because everything else is in some other file
OpenRC scripts are a lot better than SysV init scripts, but still more than systemd services.
genstorm wrote: | Not that I care, not using Gnome. You can't deny the fact, though, that *kit, upower and whatnot are partly unmaintained, removed functionality etc. in favor of systemd that will make it less and less comfortable to run a desktop (read: laptop) system for the rest of us. And I don't see anyone standing up and taking over those deprecated upstream parts, endless talk, yes. |
This is also a good point, and most of those projects saw maintenance from systemd people before they either got absorbed or replaced by systemd. |
A common *BSD cliche is that all of these technologies are symptomatic of the Linux obsession with shiny, which is a very lazy characterisation, imo; were BSD to have anything like the developer and userbase Linux has they'd have exactly the same issues. I like to think of it as a mix of aritificial and natural selection; better tools have come along and some developers adopt them. However, it isn't necessarily the best that survives, just the best survivor.
I think at this point widespread adoption is inevitable. |
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Shamus397 Apprentice
Joined: 03 Apr 2005 Posts: 218 Location: Ur-th
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Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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genstorm wrote: | Shamus397 wrote: | The fact that the Funtoo guys got rid of *all* the systemd hooks *without* losing any functionality alone proves it to me. |
"I keep seeing this thrown around a lot, and without a shred of evidence to back it up. And my gut tells me that it just isn't true."
I tend to believe the Gnome maintainers in that case. |
More than a shred of evidence. You can blindly believe the Gnome guys, or you can open your eyes. |
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mrbassie l33t
Joined: 31 May 2013 Posts: 781 Location: over here
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tld Veteran
Joined: 09 Dec 2003 Posts: 1816
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Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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OMG...The quote/link from LP about Gentoo in that thread actually reads like a threat. FFS. That rant on the LKML referring to him as "a f****ing tool" was being way too nice. There just are no words...at least none appropriate in public... |
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