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| Do you want systemd as default on Gentoo? |
| I <3 systemd!! I want Gentoo to switch!! |
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12% |
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| Get that horse-crap away from Gentoo as far as possible! |
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| Total Votes : 212 |
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saellaven
l33t
Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 648
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 Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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Given he attacks Linus and his followers more than Gentoo, I wonder if he's self aware enough that the very same post could be written about him and his project's loyal followers...
He calls everyone else assholes that aggressively can't get along with him, yet, that is the exact behavior many of us see from him and his followers. Here's to hoping his ranting about those evil kernel devs keeps kdbus out of the kernel since he states he can't and won't work with them. |
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avx
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Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 2152
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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"Gentoo, this is your wakeup-call" -> "I've been attack by Gentoo-people" -> disables comments. Classic schmosby.
Can we get a proper verb definition for something like "he's poettering(ing)"?
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Anon-E-moose
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Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 6102
Location: Dallas area
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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| avx wrote: | | Can we get a proper verb definition for something like "he's poettering(ing)"? |
++ 
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Anon-E-moose
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Joined: 23 May 2008
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Location: Dallas area
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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"Oh boo hoo hoo, everyones out to get me, they're all assholes, but I'm a role model" 
Since he can't wheedle his way into getting the kernel folks to do what he wants, now he just badmouths them.
The only thing he hasn't tried, and I don't think he's capable of it, is to be humble enough to work well with others.
He's threatened "it's your wakeup call, gentoo", been dismissive of bug reports,
and any hints towards making things work for more than just himself and his needs.
Hell, for all I know his real employer is in Redmond, not wherever RH is.
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shuurai
n00b
Joined: 21 May 2013
Posts: 8
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avx
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Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 2152
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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Here is a thread on it on Reddit: http://redd.it/2ifo6h
Basically, if you don't share his views and even try to state your views as a Gentoo user, you'll get shat on on made up pseudo reasons someone is reading intentionally between the lines.
Me: "[...]He and his gang[...]"
Reply: "So, you put a lot of your bitcoins in on the hitman? "He and his gang" I don't even see where you get this retoric[...]"
Wtf.
Edit, @shuurai, soviel zu Golems neuen "Qualitätsstandards".
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shuurai
n00b
Joined: 21 May 2013
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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What would be a proper definition for "poettering"? im curious lol.
maybe this | Quote: | | He calls everyone else assholes that aggressively can't get along with him |
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depontius
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Joined: 05 May 2004
Posts: 3509
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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| avx wrote: | | Basically, if you don't share his views and even try to state your views as a Gentoo user |
Just out of curiosity, is there any loving attitude adjustment given to Slackware people by the systemd crowd? (Of course it's "loving attitude adjustment", because hatred and vitriol are terms used only by those who choose not to run systemd.)
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avx
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Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 2152
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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| depontius wrote: | | avx wrote: | | Basically, if you don't share his views and even try to state your views as a Gentoo user |
Just out of curiosity, is there any loving attitude adjustment given to Slackware people by the systemd crowd? (Of course it's "loving attitude adjustment", because hatred and vitriol are terms used only by those who choose not to run systemd.) |
No. While Slackware is mostly mentioned together with Gentoo as "the last two big forces of resistance", attacks are almost exclusively on Gentoo or the "no systemd, because reasons, thanks"-standpoint.
I'm not entirely sure why, maybe it's because Patrick is doing Slack mostly alone and would be an easier target with a "we also got Gentoo"-presentation in hand. Maybe it's also because Gentoo/portage is a vital part for Google to build ChromeOS and they see a way into it here.
Funny thing is, in that linked thread, I talk about philosophy and get replies with "talk about software", then I talk about software and they want to bring it back to philosophy, in the process of course completely avoiding my other talking points.
Anyways, I'm really tired of all that shit, tonight I'll clean the last remaining of my systems, check the excludes file and hopefully that's it.
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Naib
Watchman
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 6051
Location: Removed by Neddy
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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| avx wrote: | Here is a thread on it on Reddit: http://redd.it/2ifo6h
Basically, if you don't share his views and even try to state your views as a Gentoo user, you'll get shat on on made up pseudo reasons someone is reading intentionally between the lines.
Me: "[...]He and his gang[...]"
Reply: "So, you put a lot of your bitcoins in on the hitman? "He and his gang" I don't even see where you get this retoric[...]"
Wtf.
Edit, @shuurai, soviel zu Golems neuen "Qualitätsstandards". |
read this http://0pointer.de/public/gnomeasia2014.pdf
systemd working on cloud integration....
also the list of what it does is ...
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avx
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Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 2152
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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Can I have some mercy already? 
I think our biggest problem is that we're actually talking about systemd in the open. That is just binding our ressources keeping us from doing other work, related or not. Imho, the interested devs should continue their work making systemd available(imho not as default) and every pro/con systemd discussion thread(even in OTW) should be closed right from the bat. Only allow systemd support questions and also kill everything unrelated from them.
Basically we're currently under attack from all directions, but we don't have to play that game, cause as it stands now, I don't see a possibility to "win". We're a little like Asterix&Obelix, only we're missing the magic potion.
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depontius
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Joined: 05 May 2004
Posts: 3509
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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With an "already done" list like that, along with whatever they get done from their "todo list", what do you think the systemd people will be doing a year from now, once they're out of their early-adopter base and into wide deployment?
I think they'll be fire-fighting, bug-crunching, etc. I guess more likely will be how many of the developers will be left with L.P. working on the todo list, which an increasing number of them are trying to put out brush fires. Look at the philosophical complaints that have been brushed aside, and I believe that they will be growing an increasingly work-resistant code base. Without clean, well-defined, stable (and clonable, by inference) interfaces between modules, what makes them think that anyone can easily fix a bug in one spot without creating more bugs somewhere else - or enhance the code base with more things off of the todo list.
The assumption that systemd will continue to roll over the entire Linux ecosystem essentially buys into what the systemd proponents insist - that it's ready and able to take over that ecosystem and do what needs to be done. If systemd really is ready and able, I just want my little corner of the world with some freedom left. But I don't think they are, I don't think we're the real enemy of systemd - I think functioning in the real world to 5 or 6 nines of uptime will be.
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NeddySeagoon
Administrator
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Posts: 54304
Location: 56N 3W
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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If the systemd proponents fail to gen kbus into the kernel, they may junt fork it so Red Hat can go there own way.
Red Hat already keep a huge patch set anyway ...
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avx
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Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 2152
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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| NeddySeagoon wrote: | If the systemd proponents fail to gen kbus into the kernel, they may junt fork it so Red Hat can go there own way.
Red Hat already keep a huge patch set anyway ... |
Anyone know what the current situation is? Is Linus (or whoever is in charge of that part of the kernel) in favor? IIRC I remember GKH pushing hard for it to be included.
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mv
Watchman
Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 6749
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Some infrastructure for it is going into 3.17 |
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Naib
Watchman
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 6051
Location: Removed by Neddy
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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| NeddySeagoon wrote: | If the systemd proponents fail to gen kbus into the kernel, they may junt fork it so Red Hat can go there own way.
Red Hat already keep a huge patch set anyway ... |
Would they really be that arrogant?
They have managed to work their baby into quite a few distro's
For them to turn around and go 'screw you then, you have to use RH kernel release' won't sit too well with quite a few distro's.
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avx
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Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 2152
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Naib wrote: | | For them to turn around and go 'screw you then, you have to use RH kernel release' won't sit too well with quite a few distro's. |
Actually, that would be a brilliant move, what better way is there to gain even more control...thanks, now the writing is on the wall 
@mv, would you please give me a hint/link as to what the infrastructure is? Enabled by default? Can be safely disabled?
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Naib
Watchman
Joined: 21 May 2004
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Location: Removed by Neddy
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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Perfect way to gain control I agree BUT if it is played too soon it is easier for distro's to unwind..
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depontius
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Joined: 05 May 2004
Posts: 3509
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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| mv wrote: | | Some infrastructure for it is going into 3.17 |
I don't see a big problems with kdbus going into the kernel. As long as "neeed" is demonstrated and code is reasonably clean it can make it into the kernel. There will be special attention to make sure the kernel/userspace interface is clean, because once it's there, it's going to be stable. The freedom to finagle will be all but gone. There is enough hate & discontent about changing the CGROUP interface. The only reason they're getting away with it was that the original interface was so bad, and even then I thought that there was something about the legay interface remaining availab, don't know if it's run-time or compile-time. No doubt the CGROUP experience will be taken into account as kdbus is merged.
I would anticipate a lot of resistance to deprecating any current in-use kernel interfaces in the next few years, simply because "kdbus handles that need." L.P. isn't going to shove Gentoo around that way, and the userspace side is already forked.
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saellaven
l33t
Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 648
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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Given LP's G+ post today, I'd like to give a hat tip back to the original question that started the thread.
Q: Why doesn't Gentoo switch to systemd?
A: To watch LP, his self-proclaimed cabal, and fanclub whine about how we're the jerks and aggressors and they are the poor victims |
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Anon-E-moose
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Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 6102
Location: Dallas area
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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| NeddySeagoon wrote: | If the systemd proponents fail to gen kbus into the kernel, they may junt fork it so Red Hat can go there own way.
Red Hat already keep a huge patch set anyway ... |
Good, then they can quit calling it linux so the stink from their FU's doesn't come back to the real kernel.
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avx
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Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 2152
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Anon-E-moose wrote: | | NeddySeagoon wrote: | If the systemd proponents fail to gen kbus into the kernel, they may junt fork it so Red Hat can go there own way.
Red Hat already keep a huge patch set anyway ... |
Good, then they can quit calling it linux so the stink from their FU's doesn't come back to the real kernel. |
Red Hat GNU/Linux powered by RMS spinning in his grave burried on the grounds of a cathedral
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Naib
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happosai
n00b
Joined: 17 Aug 2005
Posts: 43
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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I really do love the objectives there... wow!
| Code: | Turning Linux from a bag of bits into a competive general operating system.
Building the Internet's Next Generation OS!
Unifying pointless differences between distributions
Bringing innovation back to the core OS |
Now that's what I do call a big, delusional ego! Who does he think he is, the new kernel god or something?
First two points, he's late for, let's say, at least one decade: Linux runs literally almost everywhere and it achieved that all without him, heck, Google built their whole business on Linux - without him! Linux is already competitve and runs enough of the Internet, why oh why does he think it still needs to conquer those areas?
Unifying differences between distributions? Hence, there's a reason for why there are so many distributions and guess what - they are happy that way!
And bringing innovation back to the core OS - how? Why? What? Guess he should start reading the LKML again or at least watch the change log of a kernel release before stating such rubbish!
God please, make it stop! |
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Fitzcarraldo
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Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Naib wrote: | | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTdUmlGxVo0 |
That December 2010 talk by system administrator Wolfgan Draxinger is very interesting, albeit more about the state of Linux generally rather than just systemd (although that does get mentioned too). L. Poettering interrupts at around 12 minutes and often thereafter (he really gets into his swing 17 minutes in). Putting aside whether or not his points are valid (and some are), his way of making them might explain why he gets some people's goat. Where was the session moderator, by the way? Session moderation is more than just waving at the speaker X minutes before the end of the allotted time for the talk.
There are also YouTube videos of talks by system administrators who describe cogently some technical benefits systemd provides. For example the talk by system administrator Roger Donaldson at Linux Conf Australia in January 2014: The Six Stages of systemd [linux.conf.au 2014]. Listening to someone independent who is able to give technical details is important for the debate.
I think the pro and con brigades need to agree to disagree and get on with their respective agendas. As far as Gentoo is concerned, in my opinion that should be to endeavour to maintain choice and protect Gentoo's independence: OpenRC for those who want it; systemd for those who want it; runit for those who want it; and so on. Personally, I like OpenRC and have zero problems with it, and I would like to continue using it on my main machine. But I welcome the option of systemd in Gentoo for those who want to use it (judging by the number of threads in these forums, quite a few Gentoo users are migrating to systemd, despite the poll results so far in this thread). I've set out my current thoughts on systemd in my blog, pulling together some of my earlier posts in these and other forums, so I won't bang on about it any more here. My request to the Gentoo developers is very simple: please try to maintain choice if possible, because I believe ultimately that could be beneficial for this distribution and for Linux generally.
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