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mv
Watchman
Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 6780
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 Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 7:56 am Post subject: Gentoo is dying - a wakeup call |
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I am aware that there have been dozens of threads announcing the dead of gentoo.
However, I am afraid that the situation was never as serious as it is now 
The situation has become really dramatic: The lack of manpower is visible in every corner. Almost the only maintained packages left are those from system, and even there maintenance is visibly going down (e.g. the last gcc and glibc bumps were taking several months).
Some examples of missing maintenance in projects crucial for any mainstream distribution:
- TeX-live is apparentely abandoned by gentoo since half a year, probably longer: The bug for bumping is completely unanswered so far.
- Important projects like palemoon are not in the main tree. (At least there is an overlay, but not official.)
- Important desktops like trinity are completely missing. Despite this seems to be actively maintained and there are packages of this desktop for any mainstream distribution (even for minor ones), it is ignored by gentoo. There once was a thread which points to some overlay. This overlay still seems to be maintained, but it is mainly a live overlay and so inofficial that it cannot even be found through standard means (layman or zugaina overlay list). Of course, there exists a corresponding (unanswered) request for inclusion into gentoo.
- sci-mathematics/* is practically only available through overlays if at all
- dev-java/* is practically only available through overlays if at all.
This is certainly an incomplete list of examples. It does not include the huge lists of packages which have been removed from the tree just in the previous weeks due to lack of maintenance.
Summary: Some essential packages for a major distribution are not available at all, and some only through overlays, sometimes even so inofficial that they are difficult to trust. The lack of TeX-Live has become a serious obstacle to use Gentoo for daily work in the academic sector. Probably the lack of Trinity is also considered essential by some people. And the lack of safe browsers like palemoon is perhaps dramatic for everybody. Specialized developers (like for java) can practically not use gentoo, either. Quite soon, gentoo will lose the corresponding user base if nothing changes.
Can gentoo change the situation? I really don't know, and I don't have suggestions which might save gentoo, but perhaps others do have.
That crucial packages like texlive are unmaintained simply must not happen for a mainstream distribution like gentoo (especially since the packaging of other distributions like from Debian could to an essential part be used here). |
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luismw
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 04 Jan 2010
Posts: 91
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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I guess your perspective must really depend on what packages you use.
I started using gentoo back in 2010, after bouncing from distro to distro, never looked back since.
I stopped using overlays about three years ago, because all the packages I needed where incorporated into the main tree and are perfectly well maintained.
We can enter an endless discussion cherrypicking packages (you say palemoon, I counter with Vivaldi, which is regularly updated; you say trinity, I answer i3...) and getting nowhere.
I sync daily, and everyday dozens of packages get updated. You can even get graphs from github from the last year and a half or so (https://github.com/gentoo-mirror/gentoo/graphs/). It hardly looks like a dying project.
That being said, it is true that some packages could use some love. For instance, I maintain texlive outside portage with tlmgr, which as an added bonus reduces disk footprint immensely.
So, it depends a lot on your particular use case. |
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steveL
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Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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The only "solution" is for more users, especially longer-time users such as yourself, to become developers.
I agree TeX-live is essential, but its packaging (last time I looked) is a real nightmare. So it needs someone who relies on it, on an everyday basis, who also groks ebuild development, and has the necessary motivation to stay on top of the morass. You, IOW. ;-)
WRT gcc and glibc, the former has moved very quickly in the last 3 years, by comparison to earlier periods (I'd never have expected we'd be on 6.x already.)
The interesting Gentoo work on those, goes on in hardened, IMO, and then lands in the mainline later.
Doesn't bother me so much, in that the essential requirement is for a decent compiler and libc, and we have plenty of versions that still work fine.
So maybe it's just one of the natural lulls in Gentoo; when an influx of developers move past being recent graduates, and get on with other stuff/have kids/etc.
Who knows what the next influx will bring? Hopefully we'll get some stubborn mules who actually love the UNIX tradition, and need a rock-solid base to work from, rooted in that foundation.
Whatever happens, we're always going to get some of the "look, shiny!" brigade, and personally I like all the Gentoo desktop shots down the years.
Decent use of the base doesn't preclude good graphics, which are very traditional, ime.
So become a developer, already, just for Tex-live, which you clearly rely on and use, on a daily basis; self-evidently you have the know-how to work on ebuilds.
Every distribution relies on users becoming developers; Gentoo even more so, as that's all it has.
Last edited by steveL on Sat Jan 21, 2017 1:47 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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mv
Watchman
Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 6780
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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| steveL wrote: | | I agree TeX-live is essential, but its packaging (last time I looked) is a real nightmare. |
Sure. It needs a lot of manpower. That's what is missing.
I did/do more than enough. Moreover, if a distribution depends on a single person to double/triple his effort only to keep the maintaining of basic packages, the problem already lies much deeper.
| Quote: | | and get on with other stuff/have kids/etc. |
Yes, it seems this has happened to the core of gentoo so that practically there is nothing left; or at least no enough left to keep the distribution alive. |
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khayyam
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Joined: 07 Jun 2012
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Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 1:02 am Post subject: |
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mv ... to add to your list (mostly gentoo projects):
=app-portage/mirrorselect-2.2.2-r2 ... topic, bug from 2014-09-20.
=app-portage/gentoolkit-0.3.2-r1 ... 'glsa-check', 'equery changes', 'revdep-rebuild' (bug), and possibly others (it was the case that some commands were using obsoleted 'portageq' parameters not sure to what degree this has been rectified in the current stable release). This 2013-03-31 bug is probably relevant wrt maintenance.
app-portage/* ... not sure of the status of many of these but I imagine there are a number currently broken (due to 'portageq', or other changes).
=sys-devel/crossdev ... I completely gave up on it so can't comment on the status of current stable but from the number of posts here, and open bugs I'd hazard it has various issues.
sys-apps/openrc ... right now I wouldn't trust the maintainer not to break things willy-nilly, and you can add to that the runscript => openrc-run migration.
x11-drivers/xf86-input-{mouse,keyboard,synaptics} ... the last stable update breaks input when no udev is installed (or running, I'm not sure). That makes sys-apps/busybox[mdev] no longer an option if you want xorg (sans {e,}udev).
>=sys-apps/usbutils-008 ... usbids co-opted by systemd developers (and so the package no longer builds without udev, and the package dependencies don't reflect this).
best ... khay |
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Irre
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:35 am Post subject: |
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Make Gentoo great again 
The PC is dying, while RaspBerries, mobile phones, smart TV and handheld computers etc are being more common. I want to see an easy to install Gentoo for these new common devices.
Gentoo should also be used in schools to educate young people how it is possible to build a complete system from source code. The operating system should not just be a black box. |
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NeddySeagoon
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Joined: 05 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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khayyam,
crossdev can be a challenge. Some targets are more of a challenge that others and there are reported issues building cross toolchains on multilib systems.
All I can say is that it works for me on /no-multilib/ amd64 for Raspberry Pi, 1, 2 and 3.
Pure cross compiling is its own nest of vipers but thats not a crossdev issue.
sys-apps/openrc I'm still on 0.17 but be have discussed that before :)
x11-drivers/xf86-input-{mouse,keyboard} I need to use on my static /dev. I admit I don't run stable though.
I don't have a touchpad to test synaptics on.
>=sys-apps/usbutils-008 is as you say, a PITA, I've stuck with =sys-apps/usbutils-007 to avoid the damage inflicted by the systemd takeover.
Irre,
I think that the PC is changing rather than dying. Its becoming more of a low powered network appliance than something to tinker with so the pool of potential Gentoo devs is reducing.
Potential devs are little more than users/consumers.
_________________
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NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail. |
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steveL
Watchman
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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| steveL wrote: | | I agree TeX-live is essential, but its packaging (last time I looked) is a real nightmare. |
| mv wrote: | Sure. It needs a lot of manpower. That's what is missing.
..
I did/do more than enough. Moreover, if a distribution depends on a single person to double/triple his effort only to keep the maintaining of basic packages, the problem already lies much deeper. |
Well, yeah lack of people to commit to the work.
I agree it's too much for one person to take on, on their own; but you can easily attract some helpers from the forums.
I'd help with bash review, but it doesn't seem you'd need it, to me. Can gladly test out ebuilds; really it's a best-effort works-for-me in testing. Other users will put in grunt-work to get it to stable, so long as they feel someone is going to use their effort (so they don't have the solo maintenance burden in private.)
| Quote: | | and get on with other stuff/have kids/etc. |
| Quote: | | Yes, it seems this has happened to the core of gentoo so that practically there is nothing left; or at least no enough left to keep the distribution alive. |
Yes, but it's a standard part of the lifecycle, which is why we've had lean periods (and associated threads) before. Eventually some new blood gets attracted, often old-timers out of sheer exasperation as well as exploring newcomers (who tend to have more energy.)
Not trying to trivialise, or deny the issue: just trying to turn it into a positive "Become a developer" thread.
That only really works when you focus your effort on packages you use daily, and rely on working (at least in the initial stages of becoming a developer, and in keeping the motivation later.)
Then it's a part of maintaining your workflow the way you like it.
Quite often users don't even think of getting involved, until a thread like this is raised, whereupon they realise they do have a few hours a month to keep their beloved distro running (so why not help out, even if it means jumping through a few hoops.)
After all, the alternative is too horrendous to contemplate ;) -- a future without Gentoo, schlepping around various other distros or systems, and never quite having the same control, but always missing it (which is why we came back.) |
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khayyam
Watchman
Joined: 07 Jun 2012
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Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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| NeddySeagoon wrote: | | crossdev can be a challenge. Some targets are more of a challenge that others and there are reported issues building cross toolchains on multilib systems. |
Neddy ... yes, but my criticism was directed at how sys-devel/crossdev functions, like how it selects {PORTDIR,CROSSDEV}_OVERLAY, and the fact that (even when using --ov-output) you can't have something like /path/to/crossdev-mips-unknown-linux-uclibc and not then have some nested dir. Similarly you shouldn't end up with the following when doing 'crossdev --help':
| Code: | /usr/--help/etc/portage/make.conf
/usr/--help/etc/portage/make.profile
/usr/--help/etc/portage/profile
[...]
/usr/bin/emerge---help |
Doh!! ... plus all the pollution of /etc/portage/package.* ... and why is /etc/portage under /usr even? Not to mention that it writes to other repos, eg:
| cat /var/pkg/mv/profiles/categories: | | cross---help |
Just the fact that it selects the first repo in PORTDIR_OVERLAY shows that it isn't, or at least wasn't, well implemented.
| NeddySeagoon wrote: | | Pure cross compiling is its own nest of vipers but thats not a crossdev issue. |
No, but those issues above are, and in the context of this discussion if we are using this as a selling point then it really shouldn't have these sorts of bugs (though in some sense the problem is brought on crossdev to some degree by the simple fact that gentoo doesn't use a top level namespace for the location of repos and so crossdev wings it).
| NeddySeagoon wrote: | | x11-drivers/xf86-input-{mouse,keyboard} I need to use on my static /dev. I admit I don't run stable though. |
Hmmmm ... you have virtual/libudev, {e,}udev installed?
| NeddySeagoon wrote: | | >=sys-apps/usbutils-008 is as you say, a PITA, I've stuck with =sys-apps/usbutils-007 to avoid the damage inflicted by the systemd takeover. |
The sad part is I contributed to hwids/usbids ... and now I've been locked out :P
| Irre wrote: | | The PC is dying, while RaspBerries, mobile phones, smart TV and handheld computers etc are being more common. I want to see an easy to install Gentoo for these new common devices. |
Iree ... as the saying goes be careful what you wish for ... the 'C' in PC is 'computer', most of these devices are not computers (in the sense that a human subject programs them to do a task) they are pre-programmed interfaces (and such things carry with them how they should be used). It's entirely anecdotal but I noticed that as soon as my correspondents got a smart phone, blackberry, or iPad their emails became reduced to three word blackberryitus :)
best ... khay |
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chithanh
Developer
Joined: 05 Aug 2006
Posts: 2158
Location: Berlin, Germany
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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While I don't think that Gentoo is dying, the areas that mv pointed out are definitely sore spots. Gentoo needs to attract people who are willing to work on this, rather than turning them away.
| steveL wrote: | | The only "solution" is for more users, especially longer-time users such as yourself, to become developers. |
This sounds easy, but in practice there have been problems.
For one, Gentoo needs to be friendly and welcoming to new developers. But if you read our mailing lists, often the tone is very harsh and unfriendly.
Then you have the problem of conflicts and mutually incompatible personalities. This can be addressed by mediation and talking to the parties, but I think it happens not nearly enough. Instead, it usually ends with one of the parties having their way and the other going away.
Then you have the situation when someone recently was retired as a developer, all his recruits got their Gentoo new developer bugs closed on them, with a message to go find a new mentor.
Then you have the situation with github. I understand that many developers (including myself) have serious reservations about github. But this is where open source development happens nowadays and what people are familiar with. If we get a pull request from there, ignoring it or bursting tirades against github will not motivate contributors to do that again.
What to do about it? I don't have a solution that would address all these problems immediately. I guess attitudes need to change as a first step. |
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Fitzcarraldo
Advocate
Joined: 30 Aug 2008
Posts: 2053
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Irre wrote: | | The PC is dying, while RaspBerries, mobile phones, smart TV and handheld computers etc are being more common. I want to see an easy to install Gentoo for these new common devices. |
I don't think the PC is dying. We may read that PC sales have fallen for the last five years in a row, but the reasons for that are more complex than simply the purchase of smartphones, smart TVs, tablets, etc. The fact is, the historical reasons for buying a new PC every couple of years no longer apply; people and corporations can hang on to their existing desktop PCs and laptop PCs much longer these days:
Why Moore's Law, not mobility, is killing the PC
The Real Reason No One's Buying PCs Anymore: They've Gotten Too Good
Before the advent of the smartphone and smart TV, my house had a PC and traditional TV, and some family members had laptops. These days my house has a PC (well two, if you count my server) and a smart TV and a tablet, and family members have laptops and smartphones. So the PC and laptops have not been replaced by the new gadgetry, they have been supplemented by it.
As to the topic of the thread, I believe Gentoo will not die out, because it is rather unique and there will always be a group of people -- albeit a niche -- who enjoy the challenge of developing and using it rather than a mainstream, binary distribution. Apart from the additional control Gentoo offers those who are prepared to put in the extra effort to use it (yes, there certainly is more effort than using a mainstream distribution), I think some people just prefer not to go with the flow, and seek something different. There is nothing wrong with that.
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Clevo W230SS: amd64, VIDEO_CARDS="intel modesetting nvidia".
Compal NBLB2: ~amd64, xf86-video-ati. Dual boot Win 7 Pro 64-bit.
OpenRC systemd-utils[udev] elogind KDE on both.
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chithanh
Developer
Joined: 05 Aug 2006
Posts: 2158
Location: Berlin, Germany
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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This is slightly off topic, but the PC market is in terminal decline (in other words, dying but not dead yet). PCs will not go away overnight or even next decade, but their sales have peaked and will never recover.
And the reason is that smartphones have disrupted PCs. The rise of smartphones coincided with the peak and decline of PCs. PC usage and installed base are down too, which cannot be explained by users hanging on longer to their PCs, |
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NeddySeagoon
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Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Posts: 54578
Location: 56N 3W
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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khayyam,
| Quote: | | Hmmmm ... you have virtual/libudev, {e,}udev installed? |
| Code: | $ eix virtual/lib
* virtual/libudev
Available versions: 215-r1(0/1) (~)232(0/1) {static-libs systemd ABI_MIPS="n32 n64 o32" ABI_PPC="32 64" ABI_S390="32 64" ABI_X86="32 64 x32"}
Description: Virtual for libudev providers
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It seems not. The entire output is at https://paste.pound-python.org/show/BKDZG8M7MyOaKTDrIwL2/
_________________
Regards,
NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail. |
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khayyam
Watchman
Joined: 07 Jun 2012
Posts: 6227
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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| NeddySeagoon wrote: | | Quote: | | Hmmmm ... you have virtual/libudev, {e,}udev installed? |
It seems not. |
Neddy ... sorry, I wasn't clear ... or sys-fs/{e,}udev? I'm not sure about the virtual but I thought it was provided by systemd, udev, or eudev.
best ... khay |
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NeddySeagoon
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Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Posts: 54578
Location: 56N 3W
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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khayyam,
| Quote: | | ... or sys-fs/{e,}udev, |
That looks like a 'no' too.
| Code: | $ eix sys-fs/eudev
* sys-fs/eudev
Available versions: [m]1.9-r2 [m]1.10-r2 [m]3.1.2 [m]3.1.5 [m](~)3.2 [m](~)3.2.1 [m]**4.9999 [m]**9999 {+blkid doc efi gudev +hwdb introspection +keymap +kmod +modutils +openrc (+)rule-generator selinux smack static-libs test ABI_MIPS="n32 n64 o32" ABI_PPC="32 64" ABI_S390="32 64" ABI_X86="32 64 x32"}
Homepage: https://github.com/gentoo/eudev
Description: Linux dynamic and persistent device naming support (aka userspace devfs)
roy@NeddySeagoon_Static ~ $ eix sys-fs/udev
* sys-fs/udev
Available versions: [m]216^t [m]225-r1^t [m](~)228^t [m](~)229-r2^t [m](~)230-r1^t [m](~)232-r2^t [m]**9999^t {acl doc +firmware-loader gudev introspection +kmod selinux static-libs ABI_MIPS="n32 n64 o32" ABI_PPC="32 64" ABI_S390="32 64" ABI_X86="32 64 x32"}
Homepage: https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd
Description: Linux dynamic and persistent device naming support (aka userspace devfs)
* sys-fs/udev-init-scripts
Available versions: 27^t [M](~)29^t (~)30^t (~)31^t (~)32^t **9999^t
Homepage: https://www.gentoo.org
Description: udev startup scripts for openrc
Found 2 matches |
Ahhh, package.mask contains :-
| Code: | # an over my dead body hard mask
# dump GNOME and anything else that has this as a hard dependency at any version
sys-apps/systemd
# go back to a static /dev
sys-fs/eudev
sys-fs/udev |
_________________
Regards,
NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail. |
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Wallsandfences
Guru
Joined: 29 Mar 2010
Posts: 378
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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related to texlive
| Code: | !!! Fetched file: gedit-latex-3.8.0.tar.xz VERIFY FAILED!
!!! Reason: Filesize does not match recorded size
!!! Got: 443824
!!! Expected: 437768
Refetching... File renamed to '/usr/portage/distfiles/gedit-latex-3.8.0.tar.xz._checksum_failure_.e9xcjxg1'
!!! Couldn't download 'gedit-latex-3.8.0.tar.xz'. Aborting.
* Fetch failed for 'app-editors/gedit-latex-3.8.0', Log file:
* '/var/log/portage/app-editors:gedit-latex-3.8.0:20170119-193544.log'
>>> Failed to emerge app-editors/gedit-latex-3.8.0, Log file:
>>> '/var/log/portage/app-editors:gedit-latex-3.8.0:20170119-193544.log'
* Messages for package app-editors/gedit-latex-3.8.0:
* Fetch failed for 'app-editors/gedit-latex-3.8.0', Log file:
* '/var/log/portage/app-editors:gedit-latex-3.8.0:20170119-193544.log'
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from eva overlay |
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khayyam
Watchman
Joined: 07 Jun 2012
Posts: 6227
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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| NeddySeagoon wrote: | | Quote: | | ... or sys-fs/{e,}udev, |
That looks like a 'no' too. |
Neddy ... in which case I'm stumped, perhaps I should pull x11-input-synaptics out of the equation. Not to derail the thread any further but could you do me the favor of providing your xorg.conf.d (or whatever you happen to be using) via pastebin, or tarball?
Thanks in advance & best ... khay |
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NeddySeagoon
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Location: 56N 3W
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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khayyam,
Here it is. Its grown like topsy over the years.
| Code: | $ wgetpaste xorg.conf
Your paste can be seen here: https://paste.pound-python.org/show/tyotlccyGMVo6t4oYvHq/ |
Things get added, things get commented out and very rarely, deleted, so its full of junk.
When I make a mess of it, I start again from a copy.
_________________
Regards,
NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail. |
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mir3x
Guru
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Posts: 455
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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Not so long i got bug reports from debian users, bc my app is crashing at quit.
It turns out Gcc6 is shipped in debian without --enable-__cxa_atexit,
so static global class will segfault at exit, eg QString from Qt ( maybe every static class ? )
Also debian gcc has --disable-vtable-verify, so debian maintainers care only to compile, let program blow to user face if its broken.
It not even with built with --enable-lto, so i think debian users cannot even build program with lto, unless they recompile gcc
(Im not 100% sure, but --enable-lto is missing in their gcc -v)
And it also is not build with --enable-libsanitizer so users can only dream about building with -fsanitize.
Also debian 'maintains' hundreds of projects which didnt see commit in last 10 years.
So who is dying?
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Kajan
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Roman_Gruber
Advocate
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Posts: 3846
Location: Austro Bavaria
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| Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 12:54 pm Post subject: Re: Gentoo is dying - a wakeup call |
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| mv wrote: | It does not include the huge lists of packages which have been removed from the tree just in the previous weeks due to lack of maintenance.
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I don *t think so.
I asked several times to remove some packages. The bugs are instantly turned as invalid. Ebuilds can not be created for whatever reason, (fishy reason, although I was able to get it working with CLI only as ordinary user on my box for example, just excuses!).
Devs are not overworked. OVerworked means new bugs would not be turned instantly as INVALID, report upsteam (same excuse), ...
my favourites for my bugs:
*) leave bugs open for many many months, or years
*) turn bugs with proper solution as invalid. Although i mentioned that that older nvidia driver needs kernel patch. Many guys said in this forum it works for their boxes. I did take my time to make bug report, filled out every info from my box. Said its in this forum post. Said that ~10-20 guys reported it works for their gpu. Ignored. A few days later, guys ask their gpu does not work. Few months later same issue ...
Developers were at that time ignorant of valid bugs + proper solution.
*) unwilling to remove some ebuilds where its obvious they can not be used anymore
e.g.
client -server based games
eternal-lands => game client will refuse server connection because of outdated client. The game owner is an idiot, but thats another topic ...
urban-terror => old game client in gentoo tree. I do not see the issue for a new bump.
I did it two times in my download tmpfs folder.
Downlaod 2GB file. unzip. change folder. run the 64bit game binary. also 32bit binary shipped.
*) devs having some attitues towards some users in the past (thats fact) It has improved.
*) report upstream ... When you look at k3b for example, you will see many open bugs, gentoo bugs related kde => report upstream. not worth bothering with kde in the first place, not worth reporting bugs for kde komponents here or on kde bugzilla!
When the time invested for creating bugs do not pay off, it'S not worth. When bugs are not worked on, you get some issues.
I stopped reporting most of my bugs. a) Devs do not care b) they are not really worked on c) when i can fix it, why should i bother, when the result is the same after 2 years. MY bugs are still not worked on ... I am quite sure there are older bugs which are still valid!
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Summary, its the work attitude of those devs and the bgo system and structure. When it does not change, users will not be that motivated to step up.
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Gentoo is dying is relative. it was worse for a while.
Taking in SYSTEMD + that mpv / vlc issue has eaten too many valueable resources which should have been spent on other more important task
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The ebuild system is a nightmare. Too complicated. I know how to code for microntrollers. It would help when the ebuild structures would be much more easier and obvious. Kernel code is far more easier to read for myself as those ebuilds, when you want to know what'S really done with all those special operators.
--
And usually every few months rant about gentoo dying.
Compared to the alternatives, is gentoo the best choice for myself. |
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asturm
Developer
Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 9280
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| Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 12:58 pm Post subject: Re: Gentoo is dying - a wakeup call |
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| Roman_Gruber wrote: | | kde in the gentoo tree is very buggy. reported, report upstream was the answer. => kde overlays is buggy as hell too. |
Don't blame your own deficiencies in working with Portage on the packages (a little back story here: Roman_Gruber thinks that 9999 ebuilds are for 'lazy devs' that don't want to create 'proper versions'). KDE support in Gentoo is top-notch.
| Roman_Gruber wrote: | *) unwilling to remove some ebuilds where its obvious they can not be used anymore
e.g.
client -server based games
eternal-lands => game client will refuse server connection because of outdated client. The game owner is an idiot, but thats another topic ...
urban-terror => old game client in gentoo tree. I do not see the issue for a new bump. |
You have been told to open separate requests for removal and have failed to follow up so far. Instead, you opened a rant on the forum. Cooperation with the devs goes both ways.
| Roman_Gruber wrote: | | *) report upstream ... When you look at k3b for example, you will see many open bugs, gentoo bugs related kde => report upstream. |
Yes, often the only place that can fix stuff is upstream. Telling you to go upstream is not a rejection of your bug - k3b does not have packaging issues, it has upstream manpower issues.
| mv wrote: | - dev-java/* is practically only available through overlays if at all.
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Well, Java really lives in a huge bubble of its own. Applications built with maven are incredibly hard to package, pulling in world+dog, often dependencies that are both immensely outdated as they are huge. Maven was invented to solve problems in a world without package managers, and as such it is bypassing any package management. Anyone developing with Java will create a build environment that is independent of their package manager entirely. |
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mv
Watchman
Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 6780
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 12:10 am Post subject: |
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It seems that texlive-2016 is beginning to get bumped...
Concerning the old nvidia drivers: That's purely nvidia's fault; they do no longer support current kernels, and refuse to give support for non-official patches. The gentoo developer apparently wants to avoid provoking them which is understandable for an "official" mainstream distribution. For one older series of cards, there is an ebuild with patches for quite some kernels in the mv overlay (inofficial, of course), but for more recent kernels, it seems impossible to update the patches. Anyway, I do not agree that this is a reason to remove the old drivers from the gentoo repository: People who are stuck with the card will need them...
Concerning java: Maybe it is really not possible to support it. I just tried once to build a "test" android .apk (for which I had the source code!), and after a full week of work with trying various java versions, dozens (in the gentoo repository, from overlays, and manually built) of android-sdk versions and the (at that time) first versions of android-studio, and a lot of hacks I found in the net an on my own, I finally gave up without any success. On other distributions, it seems that all worked out-of-the-box. Maybe current android-studio is working better, I haven't tried since then. |
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Hu
Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2007
Posts: 22657
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 1:50 am Post subject: |
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| Recall that not all Gentoo developers are advanced programmers. Some of them write shell/Python well enough to do what they need, but would be lost if you tried to get them to debug complicated C++, Ruby, etc. Such developers are perfectly suitable for making a well-written upstream project integrate nicely with Gentoo, but cannot help you if the problem is a bug in the upstream code. Even for those developers who have the technical background that they could take over programming from upstream, they may not know the upstream code well enough to solve the issue quickly. They could spend hours or days chasing the problem, versus asking the upstream developer to investigate and that programmer having a fix in very short order because he/she knows the code in detail. Yes, it is frustrating to write up a bug report only to be told that you are in the wrong place, but sometimes, solving it in the right place is the only viable option. |
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steveL
Watchman
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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| chithanh wrote: | While I don't think that Gentoo is dying, the areas that mv pointed out are definitely sore spots. Gentoo needs to attract people who are willing to work on this, rather than turning them away.
..in practice there have been problems.
For one, Gentoo needs to be friendly and welcoming to new developers. But if you read our mailing lists, often the tone is very harsh and unfriendly.
Then you have the problem of conflicts and mutually incompatible personalities. This can be addressed by mediation and talking to the parties, but I think it happens not nearly enough. Instead, it usually ends with one of the parties having their way and the other going away.
Then you have the situation when someone recently was retired as a developer, all his recruits got their Gentoo new developer bugs closed on them, with a message to go find a new mentor.
Then you have the situation with github. I understand that many developers (including myself) have serious reservations about github. But this is where open source development happens nowadays and what people are familiar with. If we get a pull request from there, ignoring it or bursting tirades against github will not motivate contributors to do that again.
What to do about it? I don't have a solution that would address all these problems immediately. I guess attitudes need to change as a first step. |
Great post, chitanh.
I agree it's about attitudes, and am hopeful that a new influx will bring in a friendlier culture, as it did 7 or so years ago, about respect for users (no, the tree is not your playground; your local checkout is your playground.)
After all, today's occasionally disgruntled users, are tomorrow's developers (and they naturally feel part of the community, or they would not bother to get involved.)
No apparatchik can really change that, given the nature of Gentoo and Linux, each of which is reliant on its community (including developers) for all of the work.
The only thing that worries me slightly is the trend toward developers on distributions working on Macs, and only running the distro they work on in a virtual machine. I know this has happened in debian over the last few years, and I only hope we don't have any of that in Gentoo (as it leads to a real disconnect in appreciation for bug severity, as well as focus.) |
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